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[Music]

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all right and welcome to the show this

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is Martin Willis your host we have

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Robbie Graham on with us tonight and I

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got the chance to meet him in Arizona a

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few years ago and great guy really

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looking forward to speaking with him

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before that we have Alejandro Rojas

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coming up with the UFO news we have a

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new blog I actually wrote the blog this

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week over at podcast UFO calm you want

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to go check that out

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because I talked about talking with Luis

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Elizondo

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on Friday everything kind of crashed and

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it I hope it's an entertaining blog

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check it out over at podcast UFO calm

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and I want to thank everyone that helps

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support the show and let's let's get

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into it

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I'm doing very well how are you I'm

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doing okay a little slow start but we're

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here alright so what's going on in the

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UFO world quite a bit isn't it of course

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there's all kinds of stuff going on and

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that a couple of the stories that are

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out there I think

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Robbie will probably refer to your guest

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that I know what his interests are and

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there is a lot of interesting

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information out there so of course

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everything out there is controversial

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you can just you can practically

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anything you say and someone will see it

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as controversial but this is a great one

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Tyler broke away who I believe you've

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interviewed so he writes for the drive

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war zone he has a couple stories now he

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has a new one out where he interviewed

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graves who's one of the pilots from the

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2015 incident that will be in the

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upcoming episode of unidentified night I

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had posted some clips with graves at

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open minds that TV and on my blog 100t

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Rojas calm but that's not destroy I want

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to talk about actually because that one

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actually you know it's good but people

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can take a look about that the one that

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was more controversial is this one that

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he has titled Tom DeLong's

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origin story for the to the stars

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Academy describes a government UFO info

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operation and it's an interesting

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article and I've got to admit you know I

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have kind of not tackled all of the

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history of how Tom

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came to create to the stars and that

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because it's weird I mean there's so

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many different stories and all the

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different things he said

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so Tyler tackled this and essentially

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he's making the argument that he

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believes that you know this is kind of a

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propaganda a bit where the government is

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kind of working with Tom to make them

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look better kind of to to essentially

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and that's what Tom DeLonge says he he

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how he tried to hook them is to say hey

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look with all this conspiracy stuff you

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guys look bad there nobody believes you

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they all think you're jerks especially

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the Millennials I want to change that

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around cuz I don't believe that to be

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the case and I have heard through some

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history that Tom DeLonge actually has

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his brother was in a kind of a

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high-ranking a person in the military

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and he's done a lot of working with the

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military because he likes the military

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he's done you know lots of concerts and

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stuff like that for the military in fact

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I'm gonna save this for my podcast sorry

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Martin but along these lines I do have

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some information nobody else it has and

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I forgot to share this at my last

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podcast but people have to listen but

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the point being that he's arguing that

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perhaps there's more of a handshake

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there more of a back-and-forth there

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than we may realize now that's why I

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asked Elizondo along those lines and

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what he said was and at least from my

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point of view I think we see a lot of to

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the stars driving their own efforts in

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their own work but Elizondo did say we

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are gonna work with the Navy and one of

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the things I brought up is these pilots

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they're active right so the Navy had to

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have given permission and he said that's

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true

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so I think we do have a pretty

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extraordinary level of cooperation with

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the Navy that they're allowing these

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pilots to talk that they have also of

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course come up with these UFO protocols

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so Elizondo says however you know we

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will work with a navy why wouldn't we

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they're a partner we don't want to make

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them mad we want to work nicely together

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so you can infer from that what you will

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and I'm sure Robby will and your

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upcoming interview with him but really

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interesting points another interesting

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article and I love these discussions

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that are coming from traditional

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mainstream defense writers

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not UFO people these are people who work

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in defense that are taking their own

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look at this but this is from an article

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from task and purpose and this writer

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it's a short article but he went to the

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Navy and to the Air Force to get their

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opinions one of the interesting things

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he was told is that this could be drones

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there's a prolific proliferation of

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drones out there so who knows what they

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could be interacting with our drones we

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don't know yet but then an army he had

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talked to the Air Force and we haven't

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heard anything from the Air Force really

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regarding all of this but the Air Force

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did reply and say now probably not giant

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drones the Chinese and Russian said

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drones would have to be huge you know

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they'd have to have traveled these vast

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distances which they can't do the

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performance that we see exhibited just

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doesn't fit drones so we've got kind of

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this back and forth conversation now

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between the Navy and the Air Force at

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least in regards to this letter so some

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really interesting stuff going on out

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there one other thing I do want to add

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is and I think this is important Brian

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bender it's kind of been you know if you

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get into UFOs you just mentioned the

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word UFOs and you're gonna get attacked

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by a lot of the trolls out there and

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Brian back bender who is in unidentified

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and write for Politico he writes about

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defense as well and and politics and

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policy around these issues I've actually

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talked to him and he's got a rich

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history he's done war correspondence

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he's got a lot of connections back there

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but as he said in his tweet he has

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taught to many of his contacts inside to

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verify that a tip was real and that they

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had been briefed by Lou Elizondo and

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they had come back and confirmed yes

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they're like I don't want go on the

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record please don't use my name but

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because but you know we ran across this

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Harry Reid wanted to do it we said okay

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we said we didn't want anything to do

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with it but so Bender is tweeted about

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this and I've talked to a more so that

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has happened I think that's just

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interesting because you know the the

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organization is is known to those who

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were privy to it or who had to give kind

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of the blessing for the program to go

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forward but it sounds like a lot of pee

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didn't really want much to do do with it

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so unpacking you know really kind of

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what's going on behind the scenes there

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is difficult and bender has made the

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point that we probably never will I mean

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after the funding ended in 2012 I think

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the program was more akin to what Nick

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Pope was doing he had a UFO test but it

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was like him maybe one other people it's

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very small operation where an even

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smaller in the case that Lou was doing

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this on the side he was doing it when he

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had time it wasn't like his primary

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responsibility so that causes a lot of

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confusion and as we've seen but some

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really interesting stories one last

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story is there's a battle our buddy Tom

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Reed who you've interviewed I know and

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AH and so if I he had a in a monument to

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this event that he had experienced and

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it was taken down and surprisingly this

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is kind of neat the Brookshire edge

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which is the local paper they wrote

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about this and then they also did an

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op-ed saying hey you need to give that

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back and put that back up so some local

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controversy there around a UFO encounter

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that's going on out there which i think

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is kind of another fun story that gets

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lost in all of this other stuff going on

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well yeah I know that's something I mean

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second time it moved it's really

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something I know it keeps getting moved

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I mean it's mostly its twofold it's

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because of the rights to the ground

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around this bridge that they want to put

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this monument near it's an iconic bridge

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in fact it was featured in Bridges of

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Madison County and and that's where this

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a well incident had occurred but the

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other so there it's issues with the

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rights to where the ground is and so

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they just keep choosing the wrong pick

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place unfortunately but there's also

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some locals who are not cooperating who

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feel that you know putting this UFO

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monument next to this bridge is making

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them look silly and it hurts their

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reputation and so they want no part of

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it so they're really challenging him so

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you have two parts of the city some

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saying hey you know what's the big deal

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we like this even the city some of the

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historians have said we like this

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historic event that happened here with

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the UFO thing well why not

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kind of

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you know call the attention to it or

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have this monument to it and others are

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like no way we don't want anything to do

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with this so it's kind of similar to

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what we were talking about with the

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military people inside kind of some of

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them saying yeah go for it we need to

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figure this out or or maybe even we need

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to use this to help us look better and

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others saying no I don't want anything

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to do with this this makes it makes us

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look bad so yeah we've ran across this

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you know throughout that this has always

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happened with this topic yes I do

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believe it is getting better I see signs

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of it almost every day it just seems I'm

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really optimistic that this topic has

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really taken taken seriously I love it

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yeah me too it's an exciting time for

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this topic it really is yeah really is

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hey alejandro thanks so much my pleasure

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thank you

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all right so I'll be talking to you next

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week talk to you soon and and one last

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point is to check out the UFO

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congress.com we've got a lot of great

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speakers being listed up there and we

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are have the proud owner I think of

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being the only US UFO conference that

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brought Robbie Graham and we're very

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proud of that he was out oh wow yes I'm

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honored that was him behind the fourth

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wall as they say anyway thanks so much

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bye next we later all right our guest

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Robbie Graham has lectured around the

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world on the UFO subject and has been

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interviewed for the BBC channel for vice

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and Vanity Fair among others his

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articles have appeared in numerous

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publications including the Guardian New

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Statesman the 14 times he study film at

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the universities of Staffordshire and

273
00:11:14,059 --> 00:11:12,839
Bristol and he's the author of silver

274
00:11:18,859 --> 00:11:14,069
screen sauces we're going to be talking

275
00:11:21,409 --> 00:11:18,869
about that and also UFOs reframing the

276
00:11:23,989 --> 00:11:21,419
debate that was out in 2017 welcome to

277
00:11:26,319 --> 00:11:23,999
the show Robbie thanks so much

278
00:11:30,530 --> 00:11:26,329
yeah good to be with you yes and you are

279
00:11:33,169 --> 00:11:30,540
in the UK so you're staying up late and

280
00:11:36,660 --> 00:11:33,179
I just wanted to say I do appreciate

281
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:38,560
but pretty lame

282
00:11:43,660 --> 00:11:40,720
they say this is this is snek trouble

283
00:11:45,699 --> 00:11:43,670
yeah losing a little bit on skype right

284
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:45,709
there hopefully you got a good

285
00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:49,130
connection Robbie for the person that I

286
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:51,110
basically said your brief background

287
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:53,600
there but for the what what they

288
00:11:59,650 --> 00:11:55,130
actually got you interested in this

289
00:12:03,490 --> 00:11:59,660
topic in general my interesting it goes

290
00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:03,500
back to my childhood I have always just

291
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:05,360
been sort of naturally drawn to weird

292
00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:07,850
topics and that was from an early age

293
00:12:13,060 --> 00:12:11,630
but it wasn't until my mid-teens 3 14

294
00:12:15,579 --> 00:12:13,070
years of age that I started to become

295
00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:15,589
quite obsessional about UFOs it is the

296
00:12:21,939 --> 00:12:17,720
kind of subject that invites obsession I

297
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:21,949
think and yes despite the fact that I

298
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,000
hadn't had my own UFO experience to

299
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:27,680
speak of really as I said I've seen

300
00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:30,050
unidentified flying objects a handful

301
00:12:34,060 --> 00:12:32,720
over the years at a distance things that

302
00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:34,070
could be literally you know termas

303
00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:36,350
unidentified flying objects but nothing

304
00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:38,350
earth-shattering nothing that would um

305
00:12:45,370 --> 00:12:42,110
it would it would indicate anything of

306
00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:45,380
an earthly origin but yeah I have to say

307
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:46,910
there was a there was an incident in my

308
00:12:51,490 --> 00:12:48,560
childhood where might one of my friends

309
00:12:53,290 --> 00:12:51,500
had a close encounter with it with an

310
00:12:56,139 --> 00:12:53,300
apparent UFO and that really captured my

311
00:13:00,370 --> 00:12:56,149
imagination I think that fueled me and

312
00:13:02,889 --> 00:13:00,380
then really by the age of sort of 14 the

313
00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:02,899
x-files had started and maybe that

314
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:04,660
probably did feed into my imagination

315
00:13:10,569 --> 00:13:07,730
and I started to buy a lot of the UFO

316
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:10,579
literature and by my late teens I'd read

317
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:13,130
most of the core UFO literature and I

318
00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:15,170
started attending a local UFO group

319
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:18,190
stafa to UFO group which is actually am

320
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:21,050
when in red so nice to frequent as well

321
00:13:25,569 --> 00:13:22,399
and so that's where I met Nick Redfern

322
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:25,579
and I'm sorry no wide-eyed teenager

323
00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:27,170
really and not even really what to

324
00:13:31,809 --> 00:13:29,630
believe but wanting to believe and very

325
00:13:36,189 --> 00:13:31,819
firm opponent of the extra-terrestrial

326
00:13:39,340 --> 00:13:36,199
hypothesis and yes so that was that was

327
00:13:40,689 --> 00:13:39,350
that was my my early years in New York I

328
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:40,699
thought I didn't start to write about

329
00:13:47,889 --> 00:13:44,689
UFOs until my mid-twenties by the time

330
00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:47,899
I'd reached my only 20 time I'd reached

331
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:49,190
my leg teens in fact that

332
00:13:54,910 --> 00:13:51,710
daata to the contest with the big film

333
00:13:57,370 --> 00:13:54,920
in answer your first fell by the wayside

334
00:14:01,570 --> 00:13:57,380
and I I started to study film at college

335
00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:01,580
and and then University undergraduate

336
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:03,620
and postgraduate levels and so the film

337
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:05,570
sort of became like my new obsession but

338
00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:08,090
UFOs never really went away for me and

339
00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:10,190
then in my mid-twenties I sort of made

340
00:14:16,060 --> 00:14:13,550
the conscious decision to merge my via

341
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:16,070
my passions into to write about UFOs

342
00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:18,020
through the lens of Hollywood

343
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:22,430
well now had you ever did you ever get

344
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:25,760
any you know backlash from from this

345
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:27,950
topic and anywhere along the line a lot

346
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:30,170
of people talk about that but it's a

347
00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:33,290
it's usually pretty it's usually pretty

348
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:35,510
good in the film business I mean it is

349
00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:38,510
it is something that seems to do pretty

350
00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:41,390
well some way you know in different ways

351
00:14:45,370 --> 00:14:43,670
in the film business in general so what

352
00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:45,380
was that like starting something like

353
00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:52,070
that did you get any backlash you know I

354
00:14:58,420 --> 00:14:53,780
mean did you did you have any trouble

355
00:15:00,280 --> 00:14:58,430
because of the topic itself basically in

356
00:15:02,170 --> 00:15:00,290
terms of all in terms of my writings on

357
00:15:05,140 --> 00:15:02,180
the subject no in terms of people

358
00:15:07,570 --> 00:15:05,150
accepting it and the you know like a

359
00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:07,580
movie company or you know when you when

360
00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:10,070
you went to get funding say for for

361
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:12,830
producing something did did you have any

362
00:15:17,530 --> 00:15:14,450
issues with the topic basically I guess

363
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:17,540
that's a no to clarify my background in

364
00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:19,130
film is this theoretical lot not

365
00:15:24,490 --> 00:15:21,560
practical so so I you know I was a film

366
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,500
studies student and then lecturer at

367
00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:26,240
college and so my background in

368
00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:28,910
companies is largely theoretical and so

369
00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:32,150
I was writing about film in terms of

370
00:15:37,930 --> 00:15:34,430
film theory really and some history and

371
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:37,940
I specialized in looking at Hollywood

372
00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:40,850
propaganda and looking at how would the

373
00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:43,030
entertainment industry liaises with and

374
00:15:48,430 --> 00:15:45,920
has sort of formed a symbiotic

375
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:48,440
relationship with the US intelligence

376
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:50,930
community and defense establishment and

377
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:52,610
looking at the extent to which this

378
00:15:58,810 --> 00:15:55,610
relationship informs the content of UFO

379
00:16:02,390 --> 00:15:58,820
seemed movies and TV shows Oh in that's

380
00:16:06,260 --> 00:16:02,400
basically how the book these

381
00:16:07,940 --> 00:16:06,270
silver-screen saucers basically is that

382
00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:07,950
kind of running the lines mm-hmm that's

383
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:12,360
right so so you know my I started to

384
00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:15,240
write on the subject for 14 times

385
00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:16,920
magazine and I wrote a sort of a string

386
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:18,630
of articles looking at the history of

387
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:22,350
Hollywood depictions of extraterrestrial

388
00:16:26,650 --> 00:16:24,930
visitation of the UFO phenomena in the

389
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:26,660
extent which Hollywood have engaged with

390
00:16:31,460 --> 00:16:29,250
UFO lore through it throughout the

391
00:16:33,290 --> 00:16:31,470
decades and the extent to which those

392
00:16:35,830 --> 00:16:33,300
depictions those Hollywood depictions

393
00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:35,840
have actually informed our own

394
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:37,860
perceptions and expectations of the

395
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:40,350
phenomenon itself so so yeah I've

396
00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:42,090
approached this from a logic theoretical

397
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:46,640
standpoint and I interviewed various

398
00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:49,110
screenwriters directors producers and

399
00:16:55,070 --> 00:16:52,230
I've sought to understand you know how

400
00:16:57,940 --> 00:16:55,080
these movies come to be interesting it

401
00:17:00,830 --> 00:16:57,950
is it is kind of amazing you know you

402
00:17:03,890 --> 00:17:00,840
hear things or have heard things over

403
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,900
the years about how you know UFOs and

404
00:17:08,120 --> 00:17:06,480
abductions and all that errs is has a

405
00:17:09,950 --> 00:17:08,130
lot to do with pop culture there's some

406
00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:09,960
type of influence through pop culture

407
00:17:16,010 --> 00:17:12,660
and you know going all the way back to

408
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,020
the 1950s when they you know the UFO

409
00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:18,720
movies were coming out left and right

410
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:21,990
and people were seeing flying saucers

411
00:17:27,170 --> 00:17:24,690
all over the place and there's a lot of

412
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:27,180
speculation out there that the mass

413
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:29,730
hysteria actually was spawned from you

414
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:32,370
know these movies is what are your what

415
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:35,520
are your thoughts along those lines yeah

416
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:37,890
it's a common misconception the skeptics

417
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,810
will often level the argument I mean no

418
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:41,280
longer of course because the whole UFO

419
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:43,200
field has changed quite significantly in

420
00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:44,640
the past couple of years but

421
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,440
traditionally the skeptical argument was

422
00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:48,240
the UFO phenomenon was the result of

423
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:50,670
mass hysteria partly brought about by

424
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:52,770
pop culture like an agra feed found in

425
00:17:56,810 --> 00:17:54,600
movies and TV shows and things like that

426
00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:56,820
you know the idea was that the UFO

427
00:18:01,370 --> 00:17:58,770
phenomenon was the the dream of

428
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:01,380
Hollywood screenwriters but actually

429
00:18:05,540 --> 00:18:03,210
it's the other way around and the

430
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:05,550
phenomenon itself and the UFO phenomenon

431
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:08,370
predates Hollywood's depictions of it by

432
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:10,740
several years so of course in the modern

433
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:12,690
era and the modern UFO era beginning in

434
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:15,410
1947

435
00:18:19,450 --> 00:18:17,330
it wasn't until three years after in

436
00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:19,460
1950 that Hollywood produced his first

437
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:21,740
movie about UFOs and flying saucers

438
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:23,919
nervously continued at the flying saucer

439
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:27,200
and so it was yet it was so it's always

440
00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:28,880
been the case that Hollywood is several

441
00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:30,260
steps behind

442
00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:33,350
ufology and ecological understandings of

443
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:35,470
the phenomenon and what Hollywood does

444
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:37,570
what it has traditionally done is

445
00:18:43,690 --> 00:18:39,770
screenwriters created people with people

446
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:43,700
within the industry they look to to the

447
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:46,160
UFO subject they look to you follow G

448
00:18:51,010 --> 00:18:48,559
and and your research for creative

449
00:18:53,649 --> 00:18:51,020
inspiration and so you know you do have

450
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:53,659
a great many people in the industry who

451
00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:55,370
are interested in UFOs we'll have a

452
00:18:58,770 --> 00:18:56,809
passing interest in it think it's

453
00:19:00,940 --> 00:18:58,780
interesting think it's creatively rich

454
00:19:01,930 --> 00:19:00,950
material and they you know they read

455
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:01,940
some of the books they watch them the

456
00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:04,400
documentaries and they incorporate this

457
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:09,700
sort of real life these real life events

458
00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:12,530
encounters ideas and they incorporate

459
00:19:17,140 --> 00:19:14,780
those into their own fictional Hollywood

460
00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:17,150
narratives effectively blurring the

461
00:19:20,649 --> 00:19:18,740
lines between facts and fantasy now this

462
00:19:24,850 --> 00:19:20,659
is a natural cultural process for the

463
00:19:27,399 --> 00:19:24,860
most part you know it's not it's not by

464
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:27,409
and large a gigantic well-organized

465
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:30,530
Hollywood conspiracy where screenwriters

466
00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:32,240
are actively seeking to mold our

467
00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:35,260
perceptions towards some sinister agenda

468
00:19:39,399 --> 00:19:37,880
there are examples of that and I

469
00:19:42,399 --> 00:19:39,409
document those extensively in my own

470
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:42,409
work but but largely this is a natural

471
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:43,970
call for a process where there's a there

472
00:19:50,169 --> 00:19:46,960
is a phenomenon that interacts with us

473
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:50,179
it affects people's lives quite

474
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:53,330
profoundly on an individual level and it

475
00:19:58,539 --> 00:19:56,570
sort of seeps into the popular

476
00:20:00,460 --> 00:19:58,549
consciousness at a sub cultural level

477
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:00,470
initially through the subculture of

478
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:04,400
ufology but then as I say you get people

479
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:06,530
from outside of the field screenwriters

480
00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:08,690
and things like that who decide to serve

481
00:20:13,299 --> 00:20:10,990
tap into this rich law this rich vein of

482
00:20:15,970 --> 00:20:13,309
Mythology that goes back 70 years or

483
00:20:17,649 --> 00:20:15,980
more and then they take certain ideas so

484
00:20:19,450 --> 00:20:17,659
for example men in black or the idea of

485
00:20:21,370 --> 00:20:19,460
close encounters that the terminology

486
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:21,380
Close Encounters of the Third Kind and I

487
00:20:25,149 --> 00:20:23,330
cannot refute the grey alien for example

488
00:20:28,180 --> 00:20:25,159
with the guys they take these things

489
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:28,190
which have been reported in actual real

490
00:20:30,930 --> 00:20:29,200
life

491
00:20:32,970 --> 00:20:30,940
your reports from lived historical

492
00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:32,980
reality and they throw them into their

493
00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:34,960
into their fictional narratives just for

494
00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:38,590
you know for created value but the

495
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:41,289
result is that that the phenomenon

496
00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:44,220
itself which does seem to have you know

497
00:20:50,370 --> 00:20:46,990
it is rooted you know in an ontological

498
00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:50,380
reality for anyone not well versed in

499
00:20:55,259 --> 00:20:53,230
the UFO literature there are only

500
00:20:57,509 --> 00:20:55,269
understanding of the phenomena the lens

501
00:20:59,310 --> 00:20:57,519
of Hollywood and so the boundaries

502
00:21:02,460 --> 00:20:59,320
between fact and fantasy are constantly

503
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:02,470
being blurred well this is really

504
00:21:07,409 --> 00:21:04,570
fascinating I didn't know this is

505
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:07,419
actually the the route that you went

506
00:21:15,690 --> 00:21:11,710
down with this book is in it you know

507
00:21:17,549 --> 00:21:15,700
because they're actually feeding off of

508
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:17,559
new things that really happen now I do

509
00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:20,080
know that Close Encounters of the Third

510
00:21:27,269 --> 00:21:23,470
Kind was very much in that way because

511
00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:27,279
of you know Steven Spielberg I've just

512
00:21:30,930 --> 00:21:29,740
heard you know that through different

513
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:30,940
people that have been on this show that

514
00:21:36,590 --> 00:21:33,840
you know that's what inspired him and

515
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:36,600
you know that's a really good example of

516
00:21:43,519 --> 00:21:39,490
using what people are talking about in

517
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:43,529
you know creating a movie around it

518
00:21:48,269 --> 00:21:45,850
yeah I mean of course Bilbo's the most

519
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:48,279
famous sort of example of a Hollywood

520
00:21:54,570 --> 00:21:51,610
filmmaker you know popularized in your

521
00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:54,580
home ecology Spielberg grew up reading

522
00:21:59,549 --> 00:21:56,289
the literature he was a completely

523
00:22:01,200 --> 00:21:59,559
obsessed and in his teens he made a film

524
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:01,210
when he was 16 years old in fact he made

525
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:03,490
a feature-length film sixteen millimeter

526
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:06,340
film called firelight which is about UFO

527
00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:07,600
visitation and actually that was the

528
00:22:11,879 --> 00:22:09,460
blueprint for Close Encounters of the

529
00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:11,889
Third Kind which he made over a decade

530
00:22:17,970 --> 00:22:15,820
later and so so yes nobody's always been

531
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:17,980
fascinated by and he's you know Close

532
00:22:23,669 --> 00:22:20,320
Encounters of the Third Kind is quite a

533
00:22:25,409 --> 00:22:23,679
youthful logically authentic movie and

534
00:22:27,509 --> 00:22:25,419
of course it's a fantasy but there are

535
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:27,519
many aspects of that movie many aspects

536
00:22:31,889 --> 00:22:30,159
of the close encounters that occur in

537
00:22:33,419 --> 00:22:31,899
that movie which have been taken

538
00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:33,429
directly from real-life reports and of

539
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:35,830
course the chief consultant on the movie

540
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:37,570
was Jalen Hynek himself who makes a

541
00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:40,000
cameo in lots of things at the movies so

542
00:22:42,860 --> 00:22:42,190
so this is a film that absolutely sprung

543
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:42,870
from

544
00:22:52,340 --> 00:22:49,760
to ufology and the UFO phenomenon itself

545
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:52,350
yes yeah and that was great he'd had

546
00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:54,930
that cameo on it in the the very end

547
00:23:00,410 --> 00:22:57,000
that was that was great when he was on

548
00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:00,420
that I remember of course um you know at

549
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:03,390
the back then I had no idea myself I was

550
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:05,250
you know not really that much into the

551
00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:07,410
topic I had no idea what who

552
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:10,470
Jacques wale or no JL and Hynek had no

553
00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:12,230
idea who they were

554
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:14,820
yeah it's great it's great

555
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:18,450
so other some other examples that that

556
00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:21,690
of a certain incident that you're aware

557
00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:25,460
of that they actually made a film around

558
00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:29,100
yes there's only a handful throughout

559
00:23:34,660 --> 00:23:31,620
the decades of movies which have

560
00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:34,670
actually been based directly on

561
00:23:40,790 --> 00:23:37,340
individual uf own close encounter cases

562
00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:40,800
or abduction cases for example mostly

563
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:42,660
how the Emerald Isle talk about those in

564
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:44,400
a moment but mostly how Hollywood

565
00:23:50,350 --> 00:23:46,410
engages with your phone or is it sort of

566
00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:50,360
take little ideas themes motifs

567
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:53,580
iconography from the literature and

568
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:55,530
incorporates into his narratives in just

569
00:24:01,370 --> 00:23:58,320
sort of a haphazard way but but yeah

570
00:24:02,540 --> 00:24:01,380
there are a number of of movies which

571
00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:02,550
have been made which are direct

572
00:24:06,919 --> 00:24:04,470
adaptations of for example you for

573
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:06,929
logical literature films that come to

574
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:09,630
mind would be okay let's go back in

575
00:24:16,010 --> 00:24:11,340
front in chronological order one of the

576
00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:16,020
earliest was the movie my brains

577
00:24:21,380 --> 00:24:18,300
frazzled now it's late let me think you

578
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:21,390
can call it the adaptation of the

579
00:24:25,660 --> 00:24:22,770
interrupted journey the betty-ann Bonnie

580
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:25,670
oh yeah mm-hmm

581
00:24:30,890 --> 00:24:29,490
the UFO incident and starring James Earl

582
00:24:33,140 --> 00:24:30,900
Jones and so this was a direct

583
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:33,150
adaptation of the Betty and Barney Hill

584
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:38,760
story that was one of the earliest and

585
00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:41,760
made movies which was made for TV you

586
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:46,620
had then of course internet into the 80s

587
00:24:52,790 --> 00:24:49,170
you had communion and based on Willie

588
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:52,800
stever's novel from 1985 another 1989

589
00:24:56,780 --> 00:24:56,130
with the adaptation you had a miniseries

590
00:25:00,290 --> 00:24:56,790
in nineteen

591
00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:00,300
ninety one or two called intruders which

592
00:25:04,670 --> 00:25:03,060
was based on put Hopkins work and very

593
00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:04,680
specifically all sort of inspires an

594
00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:06,270
amalgamation of several cases across

595
00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:09,660
blood Hopkins work and firing sky of

596
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:11,880
course 1993 and adaptation of the Walton

597
00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:14,610
experience Travis Waltons famous close

598
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:17,580
encounter so yeah they've been a number

599
00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:19,320
of direct adaptations over the years but

600
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:22,380
for the most part it's more subtle and

601
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:26,490
indirect the influence how these how

602
00:25:30,970 --> 00:25:28,290
these are creative engaged with with

603
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:30,980
this literature is it is less direct

604
00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:33,090
mm-hmm

605
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:36,750
now I just I just was sent a text up

606
00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:38,580
saying that they are I think I did hear

607
00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:41,160
this as well they're making a true

608
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:43,020
dramatic movie about Rendlesham forest

609
00:25:48,350 --> 00:25:46,200
which i think is gonna be really good I

610
00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:48,360
hope that's a very difficult one I'm

611
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:51,300
sure you know that one just because it's

612
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:53,730
it kind of gets convoluted there's a lot

613
00:25:58,190 --> 00:25:55,890
of twists and turns a lot of different

614
00:26:00,920 --> 00:25:58,200
different accounts a lot of blurry lines

615
00:26:02,930 --> 00:26:00,930
let's say so that that's going to be

616
00:26:05,270 --> 00:26:02,940
that'll be really interesting to see how

617
00:26:06,650 --> 00:26:05,280
that one in particular comes out yeah

618
00:26:09,050 --> 00:26:06,660
that's been in the works for quite some

619
00:26:11,210 --> 00:26:09,060
time the last I read about that in

620
00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:11,220
Laurence Fishburne was a tap stars both

621
00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:13,230
star and co-producer as well so that

622
00:26:19,030 --> 00:26:16,260
could be interesting and of course the

623
00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:19,040
one I missed there was 1994 TV movie for

624
00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:20,310
Showtime

625
00:26:25,850 --> 00:26:23,190
Roswell the other patients about the

626
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:25,860
Roswell story or the you know the first

627
00:26:32,660 --> 00:26:29,970
on the first full length fiction feature

628
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:32,670
film to be exploring the Roswell

629
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:34,290
incident that was done produced and

630
00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:36,090
written by paul davids and that's and

631
00:26:41,290 --> 00:26:37,860
starring Col McLaughlin and my machine

632
00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:41,300
as a very interesting very entertaining

633
00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:44,430
you know reasonably faithful of

634
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,240
obviously highly speculative version of

635
00:26:51,770 --> 00:26:50,400
the Roswell story so that so there have

636
00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:51,780
been a number of these and I'm sure that

637
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:53,550
we'll see many more in the future as

638
00:26:59,930 --> 00:26:55,530
well right right

639
00:27:04,310 --> 00:26:59,940
we had over on the YouTube chat we had

640
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:04,320
direct Diana Paul saga I mean that

641
00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:06,170
probably pronounced her name wrong

642
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:09,720
cochlea Basilica anyway

643
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:10,290
she

644
00:27:13,580 --> 00:27:11,850
hopefully we're gonna get her on the

645
00:27:17,060 --> 00:27:13,590
show hopefully won't have any technical

646
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,070
difficulties but I know she wrote the

647
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:19,200
foreword in your book she's done some

648
00:27:23,780 --> 00:27:22,200
great work from what I understand yes

649
00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:23,790
she wrote the foreword for your face

650
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:27,960
reframing the debate and known Donna

651
00:27:34,790 --> 00:27:31,290
fifty years we met in California when

652
00:27:38,330 --> 00:27:34,800
Institute and we worked part of the

653
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:38,340
symposium that delivering presentations

654
00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:41,250
on on your face and so that was you know

655
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:43,590
had the privilege of spending some time

656
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:47,370
with Diana and Jacques ballet and a few

657
00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:49,170
other people so that was that was

658
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,980
fascinating experience for me I bet okay

659
00:27:57,710 --> 00:27:53,760
yeah

660
00:27:59,210 --> 00:27:57,720
so I met you out in Phoenix I think it

661
00:28:02,210 --> 00:27:59,220
was what Chuy was that two years ago

662
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:02,220
when you were out there yeah it was 20

663
00:28:08,150 --> 00:28:04,800
20 18 it was October October of last

664
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:08,160
year actually oh no that's not no I met

665
00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:10,510
you at the UFO Congress in February

666
00:28:14,210 --> 00:28:11,780
[Music]

667
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:14,220
every February us right yep every last

668
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,510
year yeah yeah so and and I I think I

669
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:20,880
was I was behind the scenes helping in

670
00:28:24,860 --> 00:28:22,890
the back so I didn't get to catch her

671
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:24,870
you're talked to well because I was you

672
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:27,330
know just paying attention to all the

673
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:29,910
technical work back there which right

674
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:31,890
now I don't seem to be doing too well

675
00:28:39,650 --> 00:28:35,490
technical work it's now going my way

676
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:39,660
here but I got to get my engineer back

677
00:28:48,110 --> 00:28:44,090
help and helping me on Tuesday nights so

678
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:48,120
as far as I think wasn't paul davids air

679
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:53,310
as well at that time okay it was a year

680
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:55,290
before then yeah he sees really

681
00:28:59,660 --> 00:28:57,600
character he's a great guy and yeah I

682
00:29:01,040 --> 00:28:59,670
interviewed Paul for my physical screen

683
00:29:03,410 --> 00:29:01,050
sources he sort of gave me the whole

684
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:03,420
inside scoop on one on tux keeping the

685
00:29:09,230 --> 00:29:06,930
whole inside story on on how that movie

686
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:09,240
came to be and how its produced and sort

687
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:12,270
of the interesting sort of anecdotes

688
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:14,130
from the from the production of that

689
00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:15,930
movie involving you know real men in

690
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:17,550
black and no one can say were worried

691
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:19,650
they were being snooped on by quite

692
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:22,890
ominous agencies and so that was you

693
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:24,130
know that was very interesting

694
00:29:29,970 --> 00:29:27,970
yeah yeah that's great and so re getting

695
00:29:32,010 --> 00:29:29,980
over to your other book reframing the

696
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:32,020
debate can you explain kind of what that

697
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:37,330
encompasses you know yeah and so so

698
00:29:42,029 --> 00:29:39,010
reframing the debate your first reframe

699
00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:42,039
you know debate this this as I think I

700
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:44,559
said to you early on I'm not sure if we

701
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:46,960
picked it up or if we are to a cut-off

702
00:29:52,260 --> 00:29:49,330
at that point but you know as many

703
00:29:54,270 --> 00:29:52,270
people can appreciate the

704
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:54,280
extra-terrestrial hypothesis video is a

705
00:29:59,279 --> 00:29:56,890
very peeling one in it some it makes

706
00:30:01,560 --> 00:29:59,289
sense on a lot of levels when you look

707
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:01,570
at the phenomenon I think a fairly

708
00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:06,130
superficial level but but as the years

709
00:30:14,850 --> 00:30:08,380
went by beginning of pretty around 2012

710
00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:14,860
2013 I started to challenge myself and

711
00:30:21,409 --> 00:30:18,340
be challenged by other people I started

712
00:30:24,419 --> 00:30:21,419
to surround myself with more progressive

713
00:30:26,970 --> 00:30:24,429
iconoclastic thinkers who really pushed

714
00:30:28,919 --> 00:30:26,980
me out of my comfort zone and got me to

715
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:28,929
question my own assumptions about your

716
00:30:37,529 --> 00:30:31,330
origins and the nature of this bizarre

717
00:30:40,590 --> 00:30:37,539
phenomenon and I you know ice I like

718
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:40,600
ii-i've been involved in this I'm 38

719
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:42,490
years old now and I've been completely

720
00:30:46,770 --> 00:30:45,370
obsessed with this in the South 14mm and

721
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:46,780
interested and interested in it for

722
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:48,490
longer than that given by some early

723
00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:53,530
childhood so when you're that wrapped up

724
00:31:03,299 --> 00:30:56,230
in a particular subject especially a

725
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:03,309
subject like UFOs which has religious

726
00:31:08,669 --> 00:31:05,289
overtones really in the sense that you

727
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:08,679
know if you know it's poppy in its

728
00:31:14,730 --> 00:31:12,850
popular conception your UFOs would too

729
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:14,740
many people represent a higher

730
00:31:18,299 --> 00:31:16,870
intelligences superior intelligences

731
00:31:20,669 --> 00:31:18,309
interacting with us and potentially

732
00:31:24,060 --> 00:31:20,679
offering us some kind of salvation in

733
00:31:25,529 --> 00:31:24,070
the future from our you know from them

734
00:31:27,029 --> 00:31:25,539
from the past that we're on where we're

735
00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:27,039
on a path to self-destruction but

736
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:28,840
perhaps if there are other intelligences

737
00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:30,850
out there who are more sophisticated

738
00:31:34,830 --> 00:31:33,400
more advanced than we are who have

739
00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:34,840
solved their own problems and they're

740
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:37,000
here now then perhaps they can help us

741
00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:37,690
solve our

742
00:31:45,870 --> 00:31:42,460
and you know your identity starts to

743
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:45,880
become really bound up in in this idea

744
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:47,650
and ideas related to it and in the whole

745
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:51,910
subject and I I think I've suffered an

746
00:31:57,410 --> 00:31:55,450
identity crisis really you know

747
00:32:00,120 --> 00:31:57,420
when you start to really question I mean

748
00:32:01,290 --> 00:32:00,130
anyone listening to this not anyone

749
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:01,300
because a lot of people listening to

750
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:02,410
this and this isn't meant with no

751
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:05,290
offense because and I can say this

752
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:07,630
because I was one of those people and I

753
00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:09,250
know firsthand I know I know the

754
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:14,080
experience right you you know I've had

755
00:32:18,270 --> 00:32:16,480
many conversations with people face to

756
00:32:19,650 --> 00:32:18,280
face and you can you can just say

757
00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:19,660
something completely innocuous about

758
00:32:25,950 --> 00:32:23,430
UFOs that would be deemed kind of

759
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:25,960
vaguely skeptical and you can be met

760
00:32:35,970 --> 00:32:30,960
with a really you know in-your-face

761
00:32:38,610 --> 00:32:35,980
outraged response and that response is

762
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,620
is it a defensive response and it's one

763
00:32:42,690 --> 00:32:40,240
way you feel that your identity in a

764
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:42,700
belief system is being attacked and I

765
00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:44,890
know because I was that guy I was that

766
00:32:48,660 --> 00:32:45,640
guy

767
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:48,670
I was a fourteen times I spoke at 14

768
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:51,610
times comp convention in 2010 at the

769
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:54,250
University of Westminster delivering a

770
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:56,290
lecture with my colleague Matthew

771
00:33:01,710 --> 00:32:59,200
Walford on your foes and Hollywood and

772
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:01,720
CIA involvement specifically at that

773
00:33:07,140 --> 00:33:03,730
point I was in 2010 I was still very

774
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:07,150
much an ETH extra-terrestrial hypothesis

775
00:33:14,670 --> 00:33:11,170
and proponent and I was I found myself

776
00:33:16,860 --> 00:33:14,680
talking to a number of the UK's at that

777
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:16,870
conference sort of leading our

778
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:19,810
best-known sceptical authors and writers

779
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:24,100
on the subject and I found myself in a

780
00:33:27,870 --> 00:33:26,050
conversation with them and I got so

781
00:33:29,220 --> 00:33:27,880
angry when they were just asking some

782
00:33:31,410 --> 00:33:29,230
really basic questions or sort of

783
00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:31,420
challenging and making remarks that I

784
00:33:37,110 --> 00:33:35,110
felt were derogatory or that all that

785
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:37,120
were sort of challenging my beliefs and

786
00:33:43,710 --> 00:33:39,850
assumptions and my response was to to

787
00:33:46,910 --> 00:33:43,720
get you know really quite upset and

788
00:33:50,010 --> 00:33:46,920
angry about it and it wasn't until I

789
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:50,020
reached have done that and I

790
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:51,730
I thought I didn't look good that all I

791
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:53,290
said what was what was all that about

792
00:33:56,940 --> 00:33:54,850
and I wasn't really even me speaking was

793
00:34:01,050 --> 00:33:56,950
my belief it was my belief with my

794
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:01,060
religious belief reacting to that you

795
00:34:08,250 --> 00:34:05,170
know to what they were saying and Wow

796
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:08,260
I had anyways a few years later again

797
00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:11,130
some of my colleagues and friends

798
00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:14,080
started to really challenge me and I

799
00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:15,700
like to be challenged and I've got a

800
00:34:20,970 --> 00:34:18,149
very open mind and I and I I do

801
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:20,980
take on new ideas and they can adapt my

802
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:23,169
outlook and paradigm and indeed to have

803
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:28,210
and it continued to adapt and I just

804
00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:31,090
felt that most of the year 2013 I wrote

805
00:34:35,850 --> 00:34:32,860
an article called them letting go of

806
00:34:39,450 --> 00:34:35,860
UFOs they published someone on my blog

807
00:34:40,889 --> 00:34:39,460
at the time and it got quite a lot of

808
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,899
attention in UFO community when I

809
00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:42,159
published it because it was the things I

810
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:43,840
said in it and I was a very personal

811
00:34:49,050 --> 00:34:46,270
piece sort of trying to deconstruct my

812
00:34:52,350 --> 00:34:49,060
own beliefs and the beliefs of our

813
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:52,360
community the assumptions and looking at

814
00:34:59,010 --> 00:34:55,990
the phenomenon itself you know not try

815
00:35:00,330 --> 00:34:59,020
this you know the other side the

816
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:00,340
extra-terrestrial hypothesis is very

817
00:35:05,370 --> 00:35:03,010
appealing it's appealing I think because

818
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:05,380
if the UFO phenomenon represent

819
00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:07,390
something that is strictly nuts and

820
00:35:13,710 --> 00:35:10,870
bolts and we are being visited and

821
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:13,720
interacted with by biological beings

822
00:35:20,370 --> 00:35:16,270
that have evolved on another planet in

823
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:20,380
our galaxy in our dimension and they are

824
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:21,990
traveling here in technological

825
00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:26,410
spacecraft then if that's the case then

826
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:30,520
at some point we can prove that because

827
00:35:37,110 --> 00:35:33,250
we can have physical evidence and there

828
00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:37,120
will be some kind of notable change that

829
00:35:40,850 --> 00:35:38,980
occurs within our society and

830
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:40,860
civilization as a result of

831
00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:43,690
understanding the nature of the

832
00:35:49,110 --> 00:35:46,150
phenomenon and of interacting with it

833
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:49,120
and and and I'm talking here about the

834
00:35:53,460 --> 00:35:51,460
popular youthful logical concept of

835
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:53,470
disclosure with a capital D yes

836
00:35:59,870 --> 00:35:55,090
popularized by Steven Greer and others

837
00:36:05,540 --> 00:36:01,700
I first you know the entire UFO

838
00:36:07,010 --> 00:36:05,550
community in in in the modern era I

839
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:07,020
would say I'm honest and money I'm

840
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:09,930
talking more about like mmm late 90s

841
00:36:16,940 --> 00:36:12,930
early 2000 onwards the focus of the UFO

842
00:36:18,590 --> 00:36:16,950
community became less looking at

843
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:18,600
individual cases and trying to

844
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:20,010
understand and develop individual cases

845
00:36:27,110 --> 00:36:23,910
and it we arrived at a point where an

846
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:27,120
assumption started to arise that we

847
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:28,650
definitely understand the phenomena now

848
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:30,330
forget it we know what it is they're

849
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:32,850
aliens now all we have to do is push the

850
00:36:35,870 --> 00:36:34,290
government to release the information

851
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:35,880
that it's got and we can all live in a

852
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,680
utopian society walking down the high

853
00:36:42,170 --> 00:36:39,680
street with them with our alien brethren

854
00:36:44,090 --> 00:36:42,180
and that's essentially and of course I'm

855
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:44,100
being a bit facetious there but that

856
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:46,560
that is essentially the disclosure

857
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:48,930
concept in a nutshell this is usually

858
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:50,370
simplified version of it and it's much

859
00:36:55,970 --> 00:36:52,710
monument from that of course but that's

860
00:36:59,090 --> 00:36:55,980
the idea and it's it is frankly

861
00:37:02,990 --> 00:36:59,100
ridiculous I bought into it for a long

862
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:03,000
time and I think most people do but I

863
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:04,320
think you've use famous subject for long

864
00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:07,170
enough and you are brutally honest with

865
00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:10,320
yourself then it's very hard to cling to

866
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:13,230
the notion of disclosure and even to

867
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:14,760
cling to the idea that we're dealing

868
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:16,910
with a purely physical technological

869
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:20,370
phenomenon that's not to say that there

870
00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:21,810
isn't a physicality to it and there

871
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:23,240
isn't technological aspects to it

872
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:25,050
because there certainly would appear to

873
00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:30,330
be well in my experience and and based

874
00:37:33,740 --> 00:37:31,800
on me the research that I've done in

875
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:33,750
people who are spoken to you and the

876
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:35,760
conclusions tentatively that I've slowly

877
00:37:39,170 --> 00:37:37,440
began to draw I just say we are ever

878
00:37:40,610 --> 00:37:39,180
reaching a solid one because I think

879
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:40,620
when she reaches like conclusion in this

880
00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:42,930
subjective you know it's not really

881
00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:44,280
helpful to be honest with you because I

882
00:37:49,070 --> 00:37:45,660
think we're very far from understanding

883
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:49,080
it but this is a phenomenon there's

884
00:37:55,340 --> 00:37:53,490
multifaceted people like to put into a

885
00:37:57,020 --> 00:37:55,350
box so ufologists like to put the

886
00:37:59,050 --> 00:37:57,030
phenomenon into they eat into the

887
00:38:00,980 --> 00:37:59,060
extra-terrestrial box and

888
00:38:06,740 --> 00:38:00,990
cryptozoologist it's like to put big

889
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:06,750
foot into the into the the physical

890
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:09,330
unknown animal box something that's just

891
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:10,800
sort of slipped through the net that we

892
00:38:13,730 --> 00:38:12,960
can one day discover they don't like

893
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:13,740
Krypton

894
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:16,650
do not like the idea or I say some do

895
00:38:21,290 --> 00:38:19,050
but most don't in my experience like the

896
00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:21,300
idea the big thought for example or

897
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:25,080
other bizarre cryptids could be actually

898
00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:27,570
something far weirder than just unknown

899
00:38:31,609 --> 00:38:29,089
animals they could be potentially

900
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:31,619
interdimensional or extraterrestrial or

901
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,410
paranormal and paranormal researchers

902
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:36,720
don't like overlapping cases with UFOs

903
00:38:43,250 --> 00:38:40,560
and and your photos and poltergeists and

904
00:38:46,190 --> 00:38:43,260
Bigfoot overlap yeah there are countless

905
00:38:48,290 --> 00:38:46,200
cases where paranormal phenomena

906
00:38:51,020 --> 00:38:48,300
including UFOs overlap and we're dealing

907
00:38:53,390 --> 00:38:51,030
with a multi-faceted phenomenon and the

908
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:53,400
phenomenon as it's called and referred

909
00:38:58,190 --> 00:38:55,710
to by those in the know not the UFO

910
00:39:00,740 --> 00:38:58,200
phenomenon not you ApS not UFOs which

911
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:00,750
can greet the phenomenon it can manifest

912
00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:02,910
in many different ways and it has many

913
00:39:07,099 --> 00:39:05,430
different faces and can be interpreted

914
00:39:09,020 --> 00:39:07,109
in many different ways across time and

915
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:09,030
culture as it has been this is an

916
00:39:14,990 --> 00:39:10,530
age-old phenomena this didn't begin in

917
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:15,000
1947 it goes back thousands of years and

918
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:19,050
so it's far more complicated I believe

919
00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:23,010
then then then simply beings visiting us

920
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:24,390
from another planet and taking samples

921
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:27,330
and abducting us at etc etc it are far

922
00:39:31,910 --> 00:39:29,490
more bizarre I think than most people on

923
00:39:34,579 --> 00:39:31,920
the planet can even conceptualize and so

924
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:34,589
I think we are I think we are very far

925
00:39:37,339 --> 00:39:36,000
from understanding it that's not to say

926
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:37,349
we shouldn't pursue it because I think

927
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:40,170
it's profoundly important but I think

928
00:39:45,079 --> 00:39:43,010
that we should be in terms of disclosure

929
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:45,089
I'd be like I'm Hrunting now but I'm a

930
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:46,050
but I'm on a roll so I'm gonna keep

931
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:47,280
going you can you feel free to interrupt

932
00:39:52,820 --> 00:39:49,050
me yeah well actually we were ready to

933
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:52,830
go and break here okay but I will get

934
00:39:56,270 --> 00:39:53,970
right back in this because I have a lot

935
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:56,280
of questions too actually what you just

936
00:40:01,550 --> 00:39:58,410
spoke about so this is Martin Willis my

937
00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:01,560
guest is Robbie Graham and hang in there

938
00:40:04,359 --> 00:40:03,180
we'll be right back right after these

939
00:40:07,010 --> 00:40:04,369
messages

940
00:40:09,099 --> 00:40:07,020
all right welcome back this is Martin

941
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:09,109
Willis my guest is where I be Graham and

942
00:40:14,510 --> 00:40:11,700
right before break we were talking about

943
00:40:17,570 --> 00:40:14,520
the phenomenon in general putting things

944
00:40:19,070 --> 00:40:17,580
into boxes I do want to address that in

945
00:40:21,380 --> 00:40:19,080
a little while here we'll be taking

946
00:40:22,609 --> 00:40:21,390
calls and I'll give out that number in

947
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:22,619
just a minute

948
00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:24,240
actually I think we got one already

949
00:40:32,750 --> 00:40:26,880
coming in so might as well take it now

950
00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:32,760
all right here we go caller welcome to

951
00:40:35,750 --> 00:40:33,540
the show

952
00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:35,760
hello hi your first name where you

953
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:39,870
calling from my name is Dave Alton oh

954
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:42,690
it's Dave hey Dave how are you Dave you

955
00:40:47,330 --> 00:40:45,570
saved my good thank you for saving me in

956
00:40:49,370 --> 00:40:47,340
the chatroom over there I see it's still

957
00:40:52,490 --> 00:40:49,380
active which is pretty amazing the

958
00:40:55,100 --> 00:40:52,500
youtubes working I've been posting the

959
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:55,110
link fur for the show and posting links

960
00:41:00,350 --> 00:40:58,650
for Robbie stuff and Diana stuff so

961
00:41:01,370 --> 00:41:00,360
people are still active there you know

962
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:01,380
that's great

963
00:41:06,530 --> 00:41:03,330
I appreciate it do you have a do you

964
00:41:09,940 --> 00:41:06,540
have a question for for Robbie yeah yeah

965
00:41:12,740 --> 00:41:09,950
you know Robbie you have so many amazing

966
00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:12,750
researchers you know that contributed to

967
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:15,000
reframing the debate like you know great

968
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:18,570
Bishop and red pill and all the others I

969
00:41:25,130 --> 00:41:21,690
was just wondering you know how you went

970
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:25,140
by choosing who you would like to submit

971
00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:29,040
the essays and if there were any people

972
00:41:34,970 --> 00:41:31,110
that you really wanted that maybe

973
00:41:40,310 --> 00:41:34,980
weren't available at the time yeah

974
00:41:43,370 --> 00:41:40,320
thanks good question um so I wanted to

975
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:43,380
just yeah I knew this was gonna be an

976
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:45,510
edited volume I knew that this was going

977
00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:49,290
to be beyond my capabilities to write

978
00:41:55,010 --> 00:41:52,080
this book it went beyond the scope of my

979
00:41:57,470 --> 00:41:55,020
knowledge and so but I knew that this

980
00:41:59,000 --> 00:41:57,480
was I wanted to explore different

981
00:42:02,810 --> 00:41:59,010
aspects of the phenomenon that sort of

982
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:02,820
were sidelined in popular ufology and so

983
00:42:07,910 --> 00:42:06,690
I yeah I looked into the field and I had

984
00:42:09,290 --> 00:42:07,920
already got a lot you know I already

985
00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:09,300
knew most of the people had connections

986
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:13,350
with most of them some not and I I just

987
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:17,010
threw the meth out and I wanted to get

988
00:42:21,230 --> 00:42:19,380
people who who would actually challenge

989
00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:21,240
me this book was about challenging me as

990
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:23,700
much as it was challenging any readers

991
00:42:28,430 --> 00:42:26,310
and so I don't you know I didn't even

992
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:28,440
agree with with all the contentions of

993
00:42:31,790 --> 00:42:30,450
sort of some of the authors of the book

994
00:42:33,170 --> 00:42:31,800
and I thought that was the point because

995
00:42:36,380 --> 00:42:33,180
I think it's good to be challenged I

996
00:42:40,220 --> 00:42:36,390
think it's good to disagree sometimes

997
00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:40,230
you know you have a debate and so

998
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:42,030
and how to have your assumptions and

999
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:44,730
beliefs challenged and and and so yeah

1000
00:42:48,050 --> 00:42:46,050
people like me and Greg Bishop as you

1001
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:48,060
say I mean Greg's FA in the India in the

1002
00:42:53,569 --> 00:42:50,130
in the book is fantastic and he's

1003
00:42:57,530 --> 00:42:53,579
actually right now doing a full-length

1004
00:42:59,780 --> 00:42:57,540
book based on that essay which is

1005
00:43:03,140 --> 00:42:59,790
looking at the idea of co-creation the

1006
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:03,150
co-creation hypothesis we're in you know

1007
00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:05,730
an exotic unknown stimulus for example

1008
00:43:10,089 --> 00:43:08,220
beyond essentially regular human

1009
00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:10,099
comprehension does interact with us in

1010
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:14,280
manifests and we can only understand it

1011
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:15,839
and see it or perceive it rather

1012
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:19,290
according to limited human perceptual

1013
00:43:24,980 --> 00:43:21,930
apparatus so therefore that stimulus

1014
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:24,990
whatever it is can appear to different

1015
00:43:28,579 --> 00:43:26,730
people in different ways and take on

1016
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:28,589
different forms and so Greg looks at

1017
00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:30,210
this idea of this co-creation hypothesis

1018
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:31,950
and looks at the idea that we need to

1019
00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:34,710
actually more fully understand human

1020
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:36,750
consciousness and cognition before we

1021
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,730
can understand anything else which if we

1022
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:40,560
don't understand our other processes or

1023
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:42,960
our own brains we should barely do then

1024
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:44,730
we we can't really hope to understand

1025
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:45,960
anything else out there that might be

1026
00:43:50,030 --> 00:43:47,790
interacting with us so great so it takes

1027
00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:50,040
it back to the human to the human angle

1028
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:52,230
not discounting that there might be

1029
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:53,490
extraterrestrials or anything else

1030
00:43:56,660 --> 00:43:55,530
exotic and interacting with us but

1031
00:43:58,609 --> 00:43:56,670
actually saying oh look look at the

1032
00:44:01,160 --> 00:43:58,619
primary instrument that we have thought

1033
00:44:04,540 --> 00:44:01,170
before perceiving understanding anything

1034
00:44:07,819 --> 00:44:04,550
in our world which is our brain and so

1035
00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:07,829
Greg he's doing the long book on that

1036
00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:08,190
right now

1037
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:12,569
but either were great atheists in a red

1038
00:44:18,650 --> 00:44:15,450
pill junky susan's person Claire Robert

1039
00:44:20,180 --> 00:44:18,660
Bruns that Joshua kuchen who's written a

1040
00:44:24,109 --> 00:44:20,190
whole bunch of great book seven plus few

1041
00:44:25,450 --> 00:44:24,119
years Mike Hanks Ryan Sprague and I

1042
00:44:27,260 --> 00:44:25,460
don't have the book in front of me so I

1043
00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:27,270
apologize to all the other authors whose

1044
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:28,440
names I'm forgetting right now but there

1045
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,210
were fourteen in total and yeah Diana

1046
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:32,880
Posada wrote the foreword as well there

1047
00:44:38,059 --> 00:44:36,210
were others who I approached who who

1048
00:44:39,470 --> 00:44:38,069
were too busy and with some of them were

1049
00:44:41,950 --> 00:44:39,480
university professors and just simply

1050
00:44:44,660 --> 00:44:41,960
couldn't manage the workload because

1051
00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:44,670
deadlines etc and marking and they had

1052
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:49,609
to do yes certainly it was conceived as

1053
00:44:53,660 --> 00:44:52,560
potentially a multi-volume project so it

1054
00:44:55,339 --> 00:44:53,670
may it may

1055
00:44:58,609 --> 00:44:55,349
be that in the next few years I do a

1056
00:45:00,620 --> 00:44:58,619
reframing debate volume 2 with 15 new

1057
00:45:02,569 --> 00:45:00,630
authors you know it's something we could

1058
00:45:05,839 --> 00:45:02,579
go on and honest is it's an ongoing

1059
00:45:07,370 --> 00:45:05,849
dialogue I suppose but yeah thanks very

1060
00:45:08,990 --> 00:45:07,380
much for that I mean what would Suz

1061
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:09,000
answered the question I mean would you

1062
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:10,319
like spit yeah yeah and definitely

1063
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:13,440
definitely yeah I appreciate it and I

1064
00:45:17,539 --> 00:45:15,119
really hope that you do do another

1065
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:17,549
volume you know really enjoyed it great

1066
00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:20,730
thanks so much thanks hey thanks to the

1067
00:45:24,589 --> 00:45:22,680
call date so let me just get the number

1068
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:24,599
out there to anyone listening live over

1069
00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:28,650
at kgr a radio that number is six zero

1070
00:45:34,970 --> 00:45:32,670
three nine six seven four OH three oh

1071
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:34,980
and if you have a question for our

1072
00:45:39,770 --> 00:45:37,680
guests feel free to give a call and what

1073
00:45:42,589 --> 00:45:39,780
basically happens is I would take the

1074
00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:42,599
call in and just wait for me to to

1075
00:45:45,109 --> 00:45:43,260
introduce you

1076
00:45:47,780 --> 00:45:45,119
so anyone wants to call again that

1077
00:45:49,940 --> 00:45:47,790
number write it down is in case you

1078
00:45:53,289 --> 00:45:49,950
think of a question and that's six oh

1079
00:45:55,940 --> 00:45:53,299
three nine six seven four OH three oh

1080
00:45:59,569 --> 00:45:55,950
you know getting back to what you were

1081
00:46:02,569 --> 00:45:59,579
talking about in the belief system or

1082
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:02,579
the belief of what you know people are

1083
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:06,510
thinking that they're seeing or that's

1084
00:46:12,770 --> 00:46:10,530
kind of a it and I understand you you

1085
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:12,780
know you're saying this is across you

1086
00:46:18,730 --> 00:46:15,900
know the different the different through

1087
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:18,740
Cryptozoic is a crypt

1088
00:46:26,349 --> 00:46:23,280
cryptozoologist cryptozoology and ufos

1089
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:26,359
any paranormal you know the phenomena

1090
00:46:34,130 --> 00:46:29,130
but you know then it just brings me back

1091
00:46:37,099 --> 00:46:34,140
to the nuts and bolts of what people see

1092
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:37,109
you know I mean you know I personally

1093
00:46:42,109 --> 00:46:40,410
had and you know I personally had what I

1094
00:46:43,730 --> 00:46:42,119
wouldn't I don't know if it was a ghost

1095
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:43,740
but it was something weird happened to

1096
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:48,240
me and and it really happened I really

1097
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:50,730
experienced it's not like it could have

1098
00:46:54,020 --> 00:46:51,839
happened or I thought it could have

1099
00:46:55,549 --> 00:46:54,030
happened you know this thing whatever

1100
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:55,559
when it happened to me it really did

1101
00:47:00,500 --> 00:46:59,040
happen and but I've never I'm what I'm

1102
00:47:02,539 --> 00:47:00,510
getting as I've never pointed the finger

1103
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:02,549
at saying you know that was definitely a

1104
00:47:07,490 --> 00:47:06,690
ghost or but you know it made things

1105
00:47:09,350 --> 00:47:07,500
happen that

1106
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:09,360
you know people more like poltergeists

1107
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:12,330
than ghosts but then there's also this

1108
00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:14,010
situation where you know I saw an object

1109
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:19,470
above my head you know the UFO encounter

1110
00:47:24,350 --> 00:47:21,930
that I had and when you actually see

1111
00:47:27,230 --> 00:47:24,360
something physical you can even talk

1112
00:47:29,930 --> 00:47:27,240
about it and you know when I talk about

1113
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:29,940
nuts and bolts like David forever

1114
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:31,650
during the nimitz encounter actually

1115
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,210
seeing this tic tac and other people

1116
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:35,040
witnessing it too you know eyewitnesses

1117
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:38,010
seeing these things yeah how does that

1118
00:47:42,140 --> 00:47:41,040
all fit into like a belief system when

1119
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:42,150
you're actually seeing something

1120
00:47:50,420 --> 00:47:49,110
physical probably the question so does I

1121
00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:50,430
mean is no definitive answer to that

1122
00:47:54,650 --> 00:47:52,740
question this is something work so in

1123
00:47:59,470 --> 00:47:54,660
terms of belief so so for example you

1124
00:48:04,700 --> 00:47:59,480
can you can witness an anomalous event

1125
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:04,710
or anomalous phenomena a ghost or what

1126
00:48:09,410 --> 00:48:07,110
appears to be a ghost or a spirit or you

1127
00:48:12,140 --> 00:48:09,420
can see what appears to be a UFO very

1128
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:12,150
close range and you can touch it I've

1129
00:48:18,620 --> 00:48:13,650
been writing an article today about the

1130
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:18,630
famous Falcon Lake oh yeah from 19 yeah

1131
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:20,250
you know this is this is a this is you

1132
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:21,630
know one of the best documented UFO

1133
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:24,000
cases in history and Chris Mackowski and

1134
00:48:27,980 --> 00:48:26,130
Stan mahalik have just written a book

1135
00:48:30,590 --> 00:48:27,990
about it that I published called them

1136
00:48:33,050 --> 00:48:30,600
when they appear and this is sort of a

1137
00:48:34,940 --> 00:48:33,060
definitive accounting of that close

1138
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:34,950
encounter in which a man literally

1139
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:37,530
watched the u.s. Oland few hundred feet

1140
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:39,810
in front of him he proceeded to walk

1141
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:41,310
over to it touched it got radiation

1142
00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:43,280
burns from it seriously injured

1143
00:48:49,580 --> 00:48:47,820
undeniably this is a physical event he

1144
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:49,590
didn't see on uranium he heard voices

1145
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:51,510
from inside the craft the language of

1146
00:48:57,380 --> 00:48:55,530
which he couldn't identify what happened

1147
00:49:00,620 --> 00:48:57,390
that there was physical traces something

1148
00:49:02,750 --> 00:49:00,630
clearly physical happened and yet and

1149
00:49:04,370 --> 00:49:02,760
yet and there are many thousands of

1150
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:04,380
these kinds of cases documented in the

1151
00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:06,450
UFO literature very credible some more

1152
00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:09,870
credible than others of course clearly

1153
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:11,880
people having these experiences this is

1154
00:49:15,020 --> 00:49:13,680
this is not in question tall people

1155
00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:15,030
having these experiences and these

1156
00:49:19,370 --> 00:49:16,500
experiences can profoundly affect

1157
00:49:20,930 --> 00:49:19,380
people's lives my wife has had one of

1158
00:49:21,470 --> 00:49:20,940
those experiences you know so this is

1159
00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:21,480
something

1160
00:49:26,180 --> 00:49:22,950
I mean my side my experience to myself

1161
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:26,190
but I I you know spend my life now with

1162
00:49:33,260 --> 00:49:27,600
this man who has well had one of these

1163
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:33,270
life-changing experiences and so and so

1164
00:49:39,820 --> 00:49:36,810
but in terms of belief so okay I will

1165
00:49:43,340 --> 00:49:39,830
I'm sure she won't mind here so it

1166
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:43,350
specifically answer that question about

1167
00:49:47,420 --> 00:49:44,910
belief so because my wife had close

1168
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:47,430
encounter on this the second kind very

1169
00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:49,050
close very close and she witnessed this

1170
00:49:53,410 --> 00:49:51,240
with her then partner at the time this

1171
00:49:55,460 --> 00:49:53,420
is about 10 years ago

1172
00:49:59,210 --> 00:49:55,470
unmistakable Flying Saucer

1173
00:50:03,020 --> 00:49:59,220
very close up but she has refused to

1174
00:50:07,730 --> 00:50:03,030
this day to settle on a hypothesis for

1175
00:50:10,310 --> 00:50:07,740
what she saw mm-hmm they both saw it but

1176
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,320
she has refused to sort of settle on

1177
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:12,480
this is aliens and this is their agenda

1178
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:14,250
and this is why it happened cetera she

1179
00:50:17,450 --> 00:50:16,050
she's refused to say that and she's

1180
00:50:19,580 --> 00:50:17,460
refused to say well this was maybe some

1181
00:50:20,599 --> 00:50:19,590
kind of experimental aircraft or this

1182
00:50:22,220 --> 00:50:20,609
was a hallucination

1183
00:50:24,890 --> 00:50:22,230
she's just so she's considered all

1184
00:50:26,540 --> 00:50:24,900
theories but refused to settle on any

1185
00:50:27,020 --> 00:50:26,550
particular one so you've got an open

1186
00:50:30,530 --> 00:50:27,030
mind

1187
00:50:32,810 --> 00:50:30,540
that's good it is but it's a very rare

1188
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:32,820
position to take because most people in

1189
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:34,710
my experience when they do experience

1190
00:50:42,050 --> 00:50:37,530
something like that are desperate to

1191
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:42,060
make sense of it and depending on and

1192
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:43,920
and they will form beliefs about what

1193
00:50:47,930 --> 00:50:45,330
they've seen so yes they will have

1194
00:50:51,650 --> 00:50:47,940
experienced something but they will have

1195
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:51,660
formed beliefs about it both almost in

1196
00:50:54,530 --> 00:50:53,040
the moment of seeing it which is

1197
00:50:56,570 --> 00:50:54,540
something that Greg Bishop explores in

1198
00:50:58,010 --> 00:50:56,580
his theories about co-creation that I

1199
00:51:00,050 --> 00:50:58,020
haven't had a brain when it when

1200
00:51:01,820 --> 00:51:00,060
confronted with exotic stimuli try

1201
00:51:03,290 --> 00:51:01,830
desperately to to make sense of what

1202
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:03,300
it's seeing and can only understand it

1203
00:51:07,099 --> 00:51:05,490
within the limited perception type the

1204
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:07,109
process that we have which is some

1205
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:08,640
cultural conditioning and all sorts of

1206
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:11,490
things cultural expectations but of

1207
00:51:16,580 --> 00:51:14,400
course then then the process of memory

1208
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:16,590
formation plays a part as well and we

1209
00:51:20,510 --> 00:51:18,690
tell ourselves stories about what we've

1210
00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:20,520
seen and then we tell stories about what

1211
00:51:23,690 --> 00:51:22,260
we've seen to other people and as we

1212
00:51:25,550 --> 00:51:23,700
tell those stories we create a narrative

1213
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:25,560
and then we start to believe in that

1214
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:27,359
narrative even though it may be taking

1215
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:29,130
this steps further away from what we've

1216
00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:30,450
actually experienced again this is all

1217
00:51:35,539 --> 00:51:31,980
inducted to grow to grow bishops

1218
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:35,549
research here so

1219
00:51:39,029 --> 00:51:37,569
just because you experienced something

1220
00:51:41,279 --> 00:51:39,039
or see something doesn't mean you can't

1221
00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:41,289
then form beliefs about it and those

1222
00:51:45,359 --> 00:51:42,910
beliefs might actually be very far away

1223
00:51:48,479 --> 00:51:45,369
from the truth of what you've actually

1224
00:51:50,219 --> 00:51:48,489
experienced and so we should be careful

1225
00:51:52,140 --> 00:51:50,229
about that we liked we like to

1226
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:52,150
understand things especially things

1227
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:53,529
which don't seem to make any sense at

1228
00:52:00,569 --> 00:51:57,130
all and so we create narratives and and

1229
00:52:02,579 --> 00:52:00,579
the the UFO community is is one of sort

1230
00:52:03,959 --> 00:52:02,589
of dominant narratives and the dominant

1231
00:52:05,519 --> 00:52:03,969
narrative the UFO community in the

1232
00:52:07,319 --> 00:52:05,529
office of culture is extraterrestrials

1233
00:52:10,949 --> 00:52:07,329
have been visiting us since the late

1234
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:10,959
1940s the US government has been aware

1235
00:52:14,849 --> 00:52:12,640
of this from the outset they have

1236
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:14,859
recovered crashed vehicles from

1237
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:16,390
extraterrestrial civilizations they've

1238
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:18,130
successfully reverse engineered them

1239
00:52:24,089 --> 00:52:20,890
mastered the technology formed treaties

1240
00:52:25,319 --> 00:52:24,099
with these beings and and it's now in

1241
00:52:26,849 --> 00:52:25,329
the amount of time before the government

1242
00:52:28,759 --> 00:52:26,859
releases this information to the public

1243
00:52:30,930 --> 00:52:28,769
and we live in a new golden era but

1244
00:52:32,609 --> 00:52:30,940
that's the narrative that's the

1245
00:52:34,890 --> 00:52:32,619
narrative which is and you can trace it

1246
00:52:37,140 --> 00:52:34,900
back and how it formed and actually how

1247
00:52:38,729 --> 00:52:37,150
it formed which I've documented quite

1248
00:52:40,859 --> 00:52:38,739
extensively and others have as well mark

1249
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:40,869
pellington and Greg Bishop in his book

1250
00:52:44,699 --> 00:52:42,910
project be turning mock poking turns and

1251
00:52:46,829 --> 00:52:44,709
Miraj man and in my own silver screen

1252
00:52:48,539 --> 00:52:46,839
sources you can trace back these ideas

1253
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,549
these were seeded into the UFO community

1254
00:52:52,019 --> 00:52:50,319
very consciously by disinformation

1255
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:52,029
operatives named disinformation

1256
00:52:57,209 --> 00:52:53,650
operatives namely Richard Doty and

1257
00:52:58,650 --> 00:52:57,219
others in the late 1970s early 1980s and

1258
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:58,660
and and throughout throughout the 80s

1259
00:53:01,829 --> 00:53:00,160
and 90s and have been a number of

1260
00:53:03,299 --> 00:53:01,839
efforts over the years where these

1261
00:53:05,279 --> 00:53:03,309
efforts have been repeated and they've

1262
00:53:06,809 --> 00:53:05,289
been trying to so particular ideas into

1263
00:53:08,699 --> 00:53:06,819
the UFO community to form particular

1264
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:08,709
ideas and control the narrative and

1265
00:53:12,959 --> 00:53:10,930
shape popular perceptions of a

1266
00:53:16,430 --> 00:53:12,969
phenomenon that the powers that be in

1267
00:53:19,739 --> 00:53:16,440
actuality don't really understand at all

1268
00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:19,749
well very interesting I do understand

1269
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:21,430
where you're going with this narrative

1270
00:53:26,670 --> 00:53:24,249
that you know people may tell themselves

1271
00:53:29,579 --> 00:53:26,680
by the way I should announce this as

1272
00:53:31,319 --> 00:53:29,589
unpopular as he is in the UFO community

1273
00:53:37,259 --> 00:53:31,329
Richard Doty

1274
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:37,269
show in August so all right I will I

1275
00:53:39,989 --> 00:53:38,890
will get back to the listening people

1276
00:53:41,939 --> 00:53:39,999
should be really important you know

1277
00:53:46,019 --> 00:53:41,949
that's about the fantastic opportunity

1278
00:53:47,370 --> 00:53:46,029
you know yeah I I asked him I said I

1279
00:53:47,810 --> 00:53:47,380
only want you on the show

1280
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:47,820
if

1281
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:50,250
all my questions can be answered or you

1282
00:53:54,770 --> 00:53:52,010
will address any of my questions right

1283
00:53:57,170 --> 00:53:54,780
you know I didn't want him to say oh you

1284
00:53:58,340 --> 00:53:57,180
can't talk about Paul bennewitz I said

1285
00:54:00,110 --> 00:53:58,350
in particular I didn't want to talk

1286
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:00,120
about Paul bennewitz and he said you can

1287
00:54:05,180 --> 00:54:02,370
ask me anything so he said like this is

1288
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:05,190
not classified he'll answer it that's

1289
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:08,010
great yeah interesting yeah so that

1290
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:10,290
should be good but now going on the

1291
00:54:13,570 --> 00:54:11,970
narrative as it sounds like you're

1292
00:54:16,850 --> 00:54:13,580
talking about kind of the narrative that

1293
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:16,860
can be believed in you know I personally

1294
00:54:21,170 --> 00:54:18,960
think a couple of different things first

1295
00:54:24,380 --> 00:54:21,180
of all I'm on the side of your wife I

1296
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:24,390
think it's important to have an open

1297
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:26,880
mind and not to put something in a box

1298
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:29,130
and say this is definitely aliens or

1299
00:54:35,150 --> 00:54:32,090
anything like that starting to think

1300
00:54:37,790 --> 00:54:35,160
more and more as time goes on that the

1301
00:54:40,070 --> 00:54:37,800
government has as much of an idea what

1302
00:54:42,890 --> 00:54:40,080
these things are as we do even though

1303
00:54:46,130 --> 00:54:42,900
it's pretty much a proven fact that they

1304
00:54:48,830 --> 00:54:46,140
have more information when it comes to

1305
00:54:50,990 --> 00:54:48,840
either films or you know I mean this

1306
00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:51,000
many many tellers go ahead yeah

1307
00:54:54,770 --> 00:54:53,190
undoubtedly and undoubtedly that the

1308
00:54:57,110 --> 00:54:54,780
powers that be shall we say would would

1309
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:57,120
have you know they'd have conducted

1310
00:55:01,880 --> 00:54:59,040
poured great amount of funds into

1311
00:55:04,670 --> 00:55:01,890
researching this subject over many

1312
00:55:06,410 --> 00:55:04,680
decades and will have drawn certain

1313
00:55:07,790 --> 00:55:06,420
conclusions about it or attempted to

1314
00:55:09,050 --> 00:55:07,800
draw some conclusions and yes it will

1315
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:09,060
have far more information at their

1316
00:55:13,310 --> 00:55:11,490
disposal than to most of us but that

1317
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:13,320
does not mean that they have understood

1318
00:55:20,020 --> 00:55:15,330
the phenomenal crack deals you know

1319
00:55:23,570 --> 00:55:20,030
unlocked it we are we forget that we are

1320
00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:23,580
an incredibly primitive civilization we

1321
00:55:28,340 --> 00:55:26,070
are you know the dominant trend in our

1322
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:28,350
civilization globally is war and has

1323
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:30,510
been for centuries millennia yeah we

1324
00:55:33,140 --> 00:55:31,770
still haven't really even progressed out

1325
00:55:35,180 --> 00:55:33,150
of that you know one of the biggest

1326
00:55:38,450 --> 00:55:35,190
industries in America is defense is war

1327
00:55:39,590 --> 00:55:38,460
yeah and in the UK and then I mean in a

1328
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:39,600
number of Western countries particularly

1329
00:55:45,830 --> 00:55:43,920
America take 9 yes so we you know we are

1330
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:45,840
very primitive you know people are

1331
00:55:51,290 --> 00:55:48,570
murdered on mass every day around the

1332
00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:51,300
world thousands and thousands and tens

1333
00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:52,740
of thousands of you murdered every day

1334
00:55:57,770 --> 00:55:55,520
all around the world the wars waged over

1335
00:56:00,560 --> 00:55:57,780
happy things like religion

1336
00:56:01,790 --> 00:56:00,570
I mean it's pathetic it's absolutely we

1337
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:01,800
are we are free

1338
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:03,330
we are we you know we are we are not

1339
00:56:07,820 --> 00:56:05,490
very far along that evolutionary scale

1340
00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:07,830
at this point I agree I've had these

1341
00:56:12,290 --> 00:56:09,540
conversation actually with my son he's a

1342
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:12,300
pretty deep thinker and you know he's a

1343
00:56:16,220 --> 00:56:14,130
what he said the last time we were

1344
00:56:20,450 --> 00:56:16,230
talking about this type of thing he said

1345
00:56:22,490 --> 00:56:20,460
humans are just primitive and well yeah

1346
00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:22,500
and you know it but it comes in to the

1347
00:56:28,220 --> 00:56:25,910
monkeys monkeys with machine guns

1348
00:56:32,990 --> 00:56:28,230
we're just smart enough to kill each

1349
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:33,000
other you know yeah and yeah you know

1350
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:36,090
but we're also incredibly um you know

1351
00:56:38,750 --> 00:56:37,290
you can sista cool and we said we like

1352
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:38,760
to think that we are the pinnacle of

1353
00:56:42,740 --> 00:56:40,410
intelligence in the universe very very

1354
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:42,750
no far from it and so we don't even

1355
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:45,090
again we don't understand our own

1356
00:56:50,650 --> 00:56:48,330
abilities as those sort of biological

1357
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:50,660
entities either we don't understand

1358
00:56:55,390 --> 00:56:53,310
fully or even we've only begun to

1359
00:56:59,540 --> 00:56:55,400
scratch the surface of size phenomena or

1360
00:57:02,360 --> 00:56:59,550
the capabilities of our own brains we've

1361
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:02,370
got a long long long way to go and so to

1362
00:57:06,860 --> 00:57:05,040
think that we could have after just 17

1363
00:57:08,780 --> 00:57:06,870
years in the modern era of studying this

1364
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:08,790
phenomenon in a serious organized way

1365
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:11,040
behind the scene to think that anyone

1366
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:13,200
that we will have cracked this is

1367
00:57:18,110 --> 00:57:16,410
laughable is frankly last war based on

1368
00:57:19,550 --> 00:57:18,120
and I say that based on the grassroots

1369
00:57:22,790 --> 00:57:19,560
reports based on what people actually

1370
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:22,800
report about this phenomenon because you

1371
00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:25,170
know the nature of these encounters that

1372
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:27,300
people are reporting are so bizarre

1373
00:57:31,460 --> 00:57:29,610
but but you know clearly people are

1374
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:31,470
experiencing these things yes some of

1375
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:32,730
people some people are lying some people

1376
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:33,810
have found assistive cetera but I'm

1377
00:57:38,660 --> 00:57:36,330
talking about most a great many of these

1378
00:57:40,820 --> 00:57:38,670
cases are very credible or off shall we

1379
00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:40,830
say from very credible people feel

1380
00:57:46,190 --> 00:57:44,040
clearly are telling the truth or the

1381
00:57:49,070 --> 00:57:46,200
truth as they perceive it and so there

1382
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:49,080
is a phenomenon but it seems to be so so

1383
00:57:54,140 --> 00:57:49,890
bizarre

1384
00:57:55,730 --> 00:57:54,150
in many cases almost theatrical like you

1385
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:55,740
know it's playing with us it's a

1386
00:57:59,800 --> 00:57:58,050
trickster intelligence innocent

1387
00:58:01,820 --> 00:57:59,810
manifesting saw all sorts of ways and

1388
00:58:02,540 --> 00:58:01,830
and there is a strong paranormal

1389
00:58:05,630 --> 00:58:02,550
dimension to it

1390
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:05,640
and you know these things they can just

1391
00:58:11,540 --> 00:58:08,640
appear disappear they don't seem to they

1392
00:58:14,090 --> 00:58:11,550
seem to be absurd absolutely absurd in

1393
00:58:15,260 --> 00:58:14,100
many cases especially if you do your

1394
00:58:17,150 --> 00:58:15,270
historical

1395
00:58:20,089 --> 00:58:17,160
research and look at many of the cases

1396
00:58:22,099 --> 00:58:20,099
throughout the 50s 60s 70s especially

1397
00:58:24,589 --> 00:58:22,109
from South America and Europe people

1398
00:58:28,940 --> 00:58:24,599
reporting you know regularly close

1399
00:58:31,670 --> 00:58:28,950
encounters with entities in close

1400
00:58:35,059 --> 00:58:31,680
proximity to these in these movies ufos

1401
00:58:36,740 --> 00:58:35,069
shall we say flying saucers crap but the

1402
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:36,750
nature and variety of these entities

1403
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:41,130
just would defy logic in the context of

1404
00:58:43,670 --> 00:58:42,690
its terrestrial hypothesis we would have

1405
00:58:45,950 --> 00:58:43,680
to be being visited

1406
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:45,960
Arisa taking as many dis reports of face

1407
00:58:50,530 --> 00:58:47,730
value we would have to be being visited

1408
00:58:52,579 --> 00:58:50,540
at any one time by dozens or hundreds of

1409
00:58:54,260 --> 00:58:52,589
extraterrestrial intelligences all at

1410
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:54,270
the same time all over and why would

1411
00:58:59,329 --> 00:58:57,170
they you know if s so advanced and

1412
00:59:00,770 --> 00:58:59,339
presumably that several thousand years

1413
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:00,780
more advanced than we are forgetting

1414
00:59:04,670 --> 00:59:03,359
here and we're not able to get there if

1415
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:04,680
they're that advanced why are they

1416
00:59:09,410 --> 00:59:06,450
needing to sort of land aircraft in full

1417
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:09,420
view of people and take soil sample we

1418
00:59:13,549 --> 00:59:11,970
can we can analyze Mars from a different

1419
00:59:15,799 --> 00:59:13,559
planet we're on a different planet and

1420
00:59:17,569 --> 00:59:15,809
we can analyze the surface of Mars and

1421
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:17,579
do a lot of so and take a lot of

1422
00:59:21,490 --> 00:59:19,530
scientific readings of great value

1423
00:59:23,690 --> 00:59:21,500
without even having to set foot on Mars

1424
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:23,700
there's just enough lights and all and

1425
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:25,290
probes and all sorts of things and we're

1426
00:59:28,549 --> 00:59:26,640
very primitive imagine what an alien

1427
00:59:30,859 --> 00:59:28,559
civilization could do they wouldn't have

1428
00:59:33,230 --> 00:59:30,869
to show themselves at all they wouldn't

1429
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:33,240
have to show themselves at all ever yeah

1430
00:59:38,210 --> 00:59:35,730
that is a puzzling that is a total

1431
00:59:40,490 --> 00:59:38,220
puzzle I'm sorry to interrupt you but

1432
00:59:42,319 --> 00:59:40,500
that is I want to focus on that just a

1433
00:59:43,970 --> 00:59:42,329
little bit because you're right

1434
00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:43,980
there's no reason they have to have

1435
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:47,609
lights you know for one thing though and

1436
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:50,250
it's it's almost like they're they want

1437
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:52,410
to be seen if they if that's what it'll

1438
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:54,450
it's like it's not so much like a show

1439
00:59:59,750 --> 00:59:57,119
and it's almost like trying to prompt

1440
01:00:00,799 --> 00:59:59,760
responses from us and and the you know

1441
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:00,809
these are the lines have been quiring

1442
01:00:03,289 --> 01:00:02,250
that people like Jack valet and John

1443
01:00:05,089 --> 01:00:03,299
keel have been going there had been

1444
01:00:07,190 --> 01:00:05,099
going down you know as early as early as

1445
01:00:08,990 --> 01:00:07,200
the late 1960s so this isn't a new idea

1446
01:00:10,789 --> 01:00:09,000
but I do think that it's an idea that

1447
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:10,799
needs greater attention and has fallen

1448
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:12,930
by the wayside unfortunately because the

1449
01:00:16,940 --> 01:00:14,490
extra-terrestrial hypothesis and the

1450
01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:16,950
idea of disclosure pays for sex here and

1451
01:00:20,930 --> 01:00:19,710
for you to wrap your head around right

1452
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:20,940
right

1453
01:00:27,710 --> 01:00:25,170
as far as sorry I don't mind I do orange

1454
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:27,720
just to clarify as well you know just by

1455
01:00:30,530 --> 01:00:29,040
entertaining this hype

1456
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:30,540
this is you know maybe sort of some

1457
01:00:35,780 --> 01:00:32,610
interdimensional tricks and codons or

1458
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:35,790
whatever which obviously is published

1459
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:38,160
usually problematic because we're trying

1460
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:39,930
to solve the offer enigma by proposing

1461
01:00:44,450 --> 01:00:42,090
something which seems even even crazier

1462
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:44,460
and I get that and I've experienced that

1463
01:00:49,940 --> 01:00:46,410
you know I sort of didn't really make

1464
01:00:51,620 --> 01:00:49,950
much sense but but but um it does have

1465
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:51,630
value does have merit and and I think

1466
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:54,330
but just to entertain my hypothesis as I

1467
01:00:57,770 --> 01:00:56,370
do doesn't mean that I discount the

1468
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:57,780
extra-terrestrial hypothesis it doesn't

1469
01:01:01,900 --> 01:00:59,040
mean that I don't believe that people

1470
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:01,910
are experienced or not experiencing

1471
01:01:08,570 --> 01:01:06,210
actual you know profound encounters with

1472
01:01:12,380 --> 01:01:08,580
with with being and technological or

1473
01:01:15,230 --> 01:01:12,390
parity technological craft and you know

1474
01:01:19,390 --> 01:01:15,240
so because people are or they seem to be

1475
01:01:23,930 --> 01:01:19,400
and but but I think that again the

1476
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:23,940
nature of UFOs is strange because there

1477
01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:29,040
are sightings of you know I guess if I

1478
01:01:33,650 --> 01:01:31,800
if I was to see a UFO great distance

1479
01:01:35,420 --> 01:01:33,660
maybe you know like half a mile away or

1480
01:01:36,890 --> 01:01:35,430
you know a mile away in the sky or

1481
01:01:40,010 --> 01:01:36,900
couple miles away in just a dot in the

1482
01:01:42,530 --> 01:01:40,020
sky acting erratically there are

1483
01:01:44,570 --> 01:01:42,540
literally probably millions of UFO

1484
01:01:47,810 --> 01:01:44,580
reports along those along those lines

1485
01:01:50,330 --> 01:01:47,820
millions over over decades as it's

1486
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:50,340
certainly hundreds of thousands that

1487
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:52,290
kind of sighting is a completely

1488
01:01:59,210 --> 01:01:56,210
different animal to a close encounter

1489
01:02:01,820 --> 01:01:59,220
they seem almost you know so you could

1490
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:01,830
have 100 people thousand people links it

1491
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:03,450
for example in Belgium London whatever

1492
01:02:07,580 --> 01:02:04,950
who look into the sky and seeing

1493
01:02:09,590 --> 01:02:07,590
something distance acting erratically

1494
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:09,600
and what would conform to an

1495
01:02:13,670 --> 01:02:11,490
unidentified flying object those kind of

1496
01:02:15,890 --> 01:02:13,680
mass sightings happen all the time but

1497
01:02:17,810 --> 01:02:15,900
what happens when people encounter an

1498
01:02:20,740 --> 01:02:17,820
object at close range you know within

1499
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:20,750
say 500 feet or closer when that happens

1500
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:24,690
without exception things get very very

1501
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:28,250
weird almost too weird

1502
01:02:33,890 --> 01:02:31,440
and memories get distorted our

1503
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:33,900
perception gets distorted reality seems

1504
01:02:38,330 --> 01:02:36,510
to change the nature of reality the

1505
01:02:40,820 --> 01:02:38,340
nature of the reality of the perceiver

1506
01:02:42,570 --> 01:02:40,830
seems to change in the moment the closer

1507
01:02:44,670 --> 01:02:42,580
the object to them the close

1508
01:02:46,350 --> 01:02:44,680
the entity to them the nature of reality

1509
01:02:49,170 --> 01:02:46,360
seems to change over example the you

1510
01:02:50,940 --> 01:02:49,180
know the the famous CEO of home such and

1511
01:02:53,820 --> 01:02:50,950
also Channing Randall's going to turn

1512
01:02:55,970 --> 01:02:53,830
the Oz factor in relation to your close

1513
01:02:59,910 --> 01:02:55,980
encounters where people frequently

1514
01:03:02,040 --> 01:02:59,920
report to change in the sort of an eerie

1515
01:03:03,540 --> 01:03:02,050
silence like everything there's no even

1516
01:03:05,100 --> 01:03:03,550
a lot of people who experience these

1517
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:05,110
things will notice that there's no

1518
01:03:10,590 --> 01:03:07,870
animal life no no sound of birds or

1519
01:03:11,940 --> 01:03:10,600
crickets or everything just goes sadly

1520
01:03:14,070 --> 01:03:11,950
Ryland when these things are close

1521
01:03:15,810 --> 01:03:14,080
deadly on a two-sided like impossibly

1522
01:03:16,830 --> 01:03:15,820
silent there's not even any ambient

1523
01:03:18,660 --> 01:03:16,840
noise at all

1524
01:03:21,180 --> 01:03:18,670
everything's just dead excited but also

1525
01:03:25,170 --> 01:03:21,190
reality seems somehow changed and weird

1526
01:03:26,850 --> 01:03:25,180
and and heightened what is that what is

1527
01:03:31,170 --> 01:03:26,860
that what do we did what are we dealing

1528
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:31,180
with you know so did there's something

1529
01:03:36,060 --> 01:03:34,810
very very very bizarre going on and and

1530
01:03:38,700 --> 01:03:36,070
I think it does not say that

1531
01:03:41,340 --> 01:03:38,710
extraterrestrials are not involved they

1532
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:41,350
may very well be but I think it goes

1533
01:03:45,420 --> 01:03:43,570
beyond just extraterrestrial visitation

1534
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:45,430
this is a multi-faceted phenomenon and

1535
01:03:49,050 --> 01:03:46,810
it needs to be treated as one and if

1536
01:03:52,620 --> 01:03:49,060
it's not then people are gonna just miss

1537
01:03:55,530 --> 01:03:52,630
a great truth yes multifaceted I like

1538
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:55,540
that I'm speaking of that I recently had

1539
01:04:00,300 --> 01:03:57,570
some communication with Lauren

1540
01:04:02,790 --> 01:04:00,310
Christensen who was a police officer

1541
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:02,800
studying you know he's into the UFO

1542
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:04,690
topic but he also talked about a

1543
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:07,690
military encounter where all the dogs

1544
01:04:13,590 --> 01:04:09,730
became very quiet started with the dogs

1545
01:04:16,290 --> 01:04:13,600
and this came right over a base where is

1546
01:04:19,980 --> 01:04:16,300
that that had some weapons not much more

1547
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:19,990
but he said it was right near the the

1548
01:04:24,410 --> 01:04:22,510
Everglade so he said the insects were

1549
01:04:28,490 --> 01:04:24,420
really really loud and he said

1550
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:28,500
everything went completely silent and

1551
01:04:34,350 --> 01:04:31,690
even then this big triangle came right

1552
01:04:36,930 --> 01:04:34,360
over right over him what an encounter

1553
01:04:38,340 --> 01:04:36,940
but you hear that's like you said you're

1554
01:04:41,550 --> 01:04:38,350
mentioning that because a lot of people

1555
01:04:45,030 --> 01:04:41,560
say the same thing and you know and and

1556
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:45,040
I think what is that is the question to

1557
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:49,210
start with you know what makes this that

1558
01:04:54,460 --> 01:04:51,010
thing happened what could make something

1559
01:04:56,980 --> 01:04:54,470
like that happen and disability

1560
01:04:58,839 --> 01:04:56,990
so you know this is it so the whole

1561
01:05:00,550 --> 01:04:58,849
premise of the book reframing the debate

1562
01:05:02,950 --> 01:05:00,560
really was to try to think outside the

1563
01:05:06,010 --> 01:05:02,960
box to try to let go of preconceived

1564
01:05:08,859 --> 01:05:06,020
ideas and firmly held beliefs and to let

1565
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:08,869
go even the need for an answer

1566
01:05:12,370 --> 01:05:10,970
was simply to ask questions mm-hmm and

1567
01:05:15,309 --> 01:05:12,380
to see those to see where those

1568
01:05:17,109 --> 01:05:15,319
questions take us you know several of

1569
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:17,119
the contributors to the book are

1570
01:05:20,589 --> 01:05:18,290
actually also experienced with

1571
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:20,599
themselves and they've had you know

1572
01:05:23,470 --> 01:05:21,770
profound experiences with UFOs

1573
01:05:25,870 --> 01:05:23,480
themselves but they've sort of refused

1574
01:05:27,490 --> 01:05:25,880
to put those experiences into a

1575
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:27,500
particular box at the particular label

1576
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:33,490
and they've tried to to you know to

1577
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:35,210
understand them through a different

1578
01:05:41,819 --> 01:05:37,930
framework hence reframing the debate and

1579
01:05:48,430 --> 01:05:41,829
so this is I say I think I think that

1580
01:05:50,170 --> 01:05:48,440
the the disclosure term as popularized

1581
01:05:52,569 --> 01:05:50,180
by Steven Greer Steven Bassett others

1582
01:05:56,559 --> 01:05:52,579
but particular Steven Greer impetus

1583
01:06:01,240 --> 01:05:56,569
disclosure project in 2001 that that

1584
01:06:02,980 --> 01:06:01,250
what he did there was it she changed the

1585
01:06:04,750 --> 01:06:02,990
landscape it changed the landscape of

1586
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:04,760
your photo ethology and the Office of

1587
01:06:10,059 --> 01:06:07,490
culture completely and almost instantly

1588
01:06:11,650 --> 01:06:10,069
and from then on I just say it became

1589
01:06:13,839 --> 01:06:11,660
less about just trying to understand the

1590
01:06:15,190 --> 01:06:13,849
nature of the phenomena and analyzing

1591
01:06:16,690 --> 01:06:15,200
individual cases and stuff and it became

1592
01:06:17,710 --> 01:06:16,700
about while we understand it now we get

1593
01:06:19,089 --> 01:06:17,720
we know what it is because these

1594
01:06:20,890 --> 01:06:19,099
insiders have told us that it's death

1595
01:06:23,020 --> 01:06:20,900
and you know we're putting all my faith

1596
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:23,030
in these insiders that they're telling

1597
01:06:26,260 --> 01:06:24,650
the truth or they understand it so it's

1598
01:06:28,030 --> 01:06:26,270
gonna say well they understand it we're

1599
01:06:29,410 --> 01:06:28,040
gonna put our faces our faith in sort of

1600
01:06:32,380 --> 01:06:29,420
authority figures and we're gonna say

1601
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:32,390
well we just now need for you to tell us

1602
01:06:37,420 --> 01:06:34,970
what you know and we'll accept it which

1603
01:06:39,970 --> 01:06:37,430
is kind of counterintuitive because for

1604
01:06:41,650 --> 01:06:39,980
so many years we've distrusted authority

1605
01:06:43,540 --> 01:06:41,660
figures when it comes to the UFO

1606
01:06:46,180 --> 01:06:43,550
phenomenon because we know from

1607
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:46,190
documented records that from the

1608
01:06:48,510 --> 01:06:47,599
earliest years of the phenomenon were

1609
01:06:50,770 --> 01:06:48,520
nearer

1610
01:06:51,790 --> 01:06:50,780
official interactions with the

1611
01:06:53,550 --> 01:06:51,800
phenomenon have been characterized

1612
01:06:57,359 --> 01:06:53,560
exclusively by deception

1613
01:07:01,569 --> 01:06:57,369
we've been repeatedly deceived lied to

1614
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:01,579
dis informed over many decades and yet

1615
01:07:07,329 --> 01:07:05,450
so you know III write in in my in one of

1616
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:07,339
my books or anywhere I've written it by

1617
01:07:10,660 --> 01:07:08,210
I wrote

1618
01:07:11,740 --> 01:07:10,670
the ultimate irony and paraphrasing

1619
01:07:13,450 --> 01:07:11,750
myself coming remember the exact quote

1620
01:07:16,780 --> 01:07:13,460
but yeah ultimate irony of the

1621
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:16,790
disclosure movement is that it looks to

1622
01:07:22,210 --> 01:07:19,760
officialdom for the truth I say it

1623
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:22,220
deeply discussed official them whilst

1624
01:07:28,090 --> 01:07:25,250
simultaneously looking for the truth

1625
01:07:29,980 --> 01:07:28,100
absolutely yeah and that's unavoidable

1626
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:29,990
you can't get away from that fact I just

1627
01:07:33,700 --> 01:07:31,010
repeat that because it's really

1628
01:07:35,530 --> 01:07:33,710
important he you know the the ultimate

1629
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:35,540
irony of the disclosure movement is that

1630
01:07:39,580 --> 01:07:37,850
it deeply distrust officials while

1631
01:07:42,700 --> 01:07:39,590
simultaneously looking to officialdom

1632
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:42,710
for the tree now you either believe what

1633
01:07:46,090 --> 01:07:43,760
they're telling you when you don't you

1634
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:46,100
kind of have both white ways yeah my

1635
01:07:51,340 --> 01:07:48,170
inclination is to actually instantly

1636
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:51,350
dismiss or seriously distrust anything

1637
01:07:56,140 --> 01:07:53,930
that any official body puts out on the

1638
01:07:58,240 --> 01:07:56,150
other subject and if you don't if you

1639
01:08:01,000 --> 01:07:58,250
don't if you're not highly suspicious of

1640
01:08:03,250 --> 01:08:01,010
any any statement that's put out by any

1641
01:08:04,300 --> 01:08:03,260
any official body concerning UFOs in

1642
01:08:07,900 --> 01:08:04,310
this day and age if you're not highly

1643
01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:07,910
suspicious of that you're simply you've

1644
01:08:11,290 --> 01:08:09,710
not done your research and I suggest you

1645
01:08:13,660 --> 01:08:11,300
read some a lot of historical your

1646
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:13,670
footage Witcher and and get up to speed

1647
01:08:17,440 --> 01:08:15,440
on many of the world documented UFO

1648
01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:17,450
disinformation campaigns dating back

1649
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:21,710
many years and so so I mean that's what

1650
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:22,970
I want to say about a disclosure I think

1651
01:08:26,710 --> 01:08:24,770
the disclosure movement has been

1652
01:08:28,270 --> 01:08:26,720
tremendously damaging to your fo

1653
01:08:30,550 --> 01:08:28,280
research because it's essentially

1654
01:08:31,870 --> 01:08:30,560
declared an end to the effort to to the

1655
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:31,880
other mysteries we know what they are

1656
01:08:34,660 --> 01:08:33,410
and which gonna wait for the government

1657
01:08:36,010 --> 01:08:34,670
to tell us what he knows and just

1658
01:08:40,980 --> 01:08:36,020
hopefully believe what the government

1659
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:40,990
has today and so it's effectively ended

1660
01:08:46,030 --> 01:08:43,250
deeper questions about the phenomenon

1661
01:08:49,390 --> 01:08:46,040
itself and I think those questions need

1662
01:08:50,950 --> 01:08:49,400
to be in the forefront of your thorough

1663
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:50,960
search really rather than when is the

1664
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:52,010
government gonna tell us and who's gonna

1665
01:08:55,660 --> 01:08:53,510
tell us is it gonna be Tom DeLonge isn't

1666
01:08:58,810 --> 01:08:55,670
gonna be a bother but you know I just

1667
01:09:02,230 --> 01:08:58,820
think it it's very miss little red

1668
01:09:04,630 --> 01:09:02,240
herring acting counterproductive and and

1669
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:04,640
I think potentially quite dangerous well

1670
01:09:11,340 --> 01:09:06,890
I understand what you're saying it would

1671
01:09:16,780 --> 01:09:11,350
almost be like okay so we found out that

1672
01:09:18,790 --> 01:09:16,790
these UFO encounters are a so you know

1673
01:09:19,780 --> 01:09:18,800
say all right let's just say

1674
01:09:21,550 --> 01:09:19,790
extraterrestrial

1675
01:09:25,480 --> 01:09:21,560
oh that's

1676
01:09:26,830 --> 01:09:25,490
okay so end of story no no there's so

1677
01:09:32,170 --> 01:09:26,840
much more of a story or there could be

1678
01:09:34,060 --> 01:09:32,180
so much more of a story I also want to

1679
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:34,070
get into a little bit of what you are

1680
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:37,970
thinking about you'reyou're just again

1681
01:09:41,350 --> 01:09:39,920
I'm paraphrasing here but you said

1682
01:09:43,050 --> 01:09:41,360
something along the line so you don't

1683
01:09:45,580 --> 01:09:43,060
want to believe anything that government

1684
01:09:47,170 --> 01:09:45,590
has to say so I want to address that but

1685
01:09:49,210 --> 01:09:47,180
before that I want to say something

1686
01:09:50,740 --> 01:09:49,220
about someone you mentioned a few

1687
01:09:53,020 --> 01:09:50,750
different times here is Greg Bishop I

1688
01:09:58,290 --> 01:09:53,030
love Greg he's he's awesome he is a

1689
01:10:01,600 --> 01:09:58,300
great great podcast too and so Greg I

1690
01:10:03,550 --> 01:10:01,610
like what Gregg has to say about in

1691
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:03,560
counties he said the weirder they are

1692
01:10:10,690 --> 01:10:08,810
the more I believe that you know the

1693
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:10,700
more validity yeah I think he talks

1694
01:10:15,670 --> 01:10:13,010
about a woman driving by and seeing a

1695
01:10:17,740 --> 01:10:15,680
teddy bear or something and he says now

1696
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:17,750
that's important to me you know it's

1697
01:10:20,290 --> 01:10:18,890
something you know no one would talk

1698
01:10:22,650 --> 01:10:20,300
about but he said that's that's an

1699
01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:22,660
important part of you know what she saw

1700
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:28,400
yeah you'll find that in great many a

1701
01:10:32,590 --> 01:10:31,370
great many close encounter cases where

1702
01:10:36,490 --> 01:10:32,600
people have experienced these things

1703
01:10:38,950 --> 01:10:36,500
close up I being the craft or both there

1704
01:10:42,190 --> 01:10:38,960
are aspects to those encounters which

1705
01:10:47,230 --> 01:10:42,200
are utterly absurd like an outside of

1706
01:10:48,430 --> 01:10:47,240
the accepted the accepted narrative of

1707
01:10:50,860 --> 01:10:48,440
how something like that should occur

1708
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:50,870
like for example it had been like yeah I

1709
01:10:55,150 --> 01:10:53,450
can tell you that or or you know which

1710
01:10:56,440 --> 01:10:55,160
of course I've got to use whatever would

1711
01:10:57,970 --> 01:10:56,450
say oh it's a screen memory or something

1712
01:10:59,920 --> 01:10:57,980
like that but there was weirder things

1713
01:11:03,370 --> 01:10:59,930
and that you know or tremendous and

1714
01:11:04,930 --> 01:11:03,380
chronicity interactions we with nature

1715
01:11:06,790 --> 01:11:04,940
and animals and things which sort of all

1716
01:11:10,030 --> 01:11:06,800
seem to be linked into the experience

1717
01:11:12,580 --> 01:11:10,040
very very very strange things and that

1718
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:12,590
happen within the encounter itself or

1719
01:11:16,270 --> 01:11:14,330
surrounding the encounter itself and

1720
01:11:18,580 --> 01:11:16,280
great at grace the question in the book

1721
01:11:20,500 --> 01:11:18,590
he says you know he's even interested in

1722
01:11:22,930 --> 01:11:20,510
and we should be asking not just what

1723
01:11:25,030 --> 01:11:22,940
did you see but what was happening in

1724
01:11:26,890 --> 01:11:25,040
your life in the days weeks months

1725
01:11:28,270 --> 01:11:26,900
leading up to this experience what

1726
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:28,280
happened afterwards what happened

1727
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:30,050
surrounding this event what was your

1728
01:11:33,010 --> 01:11:31,280
what was with what was your frame of

1729
01:11:33,690 --> 01:11:33,020
mind what events what events happened in

1730
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:33,700
your life

1731
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:35,449
what again

1732
01:11:40,169 --> 01:11:38,330
framed this experience because that's

1733
01:11:42,820 --> 01:11:40,179
crucially important because of course

1734
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:42,830
other than jebediah says in in his body

1735
01:11:49,090 --> 01:11:45,370
and you're hoping forces just come up

1736
01:11:51,130 --> 01:11:49,100
you know central to any UFO experience

1737
01:11:52,630 --> 01:11:51,140
is the witness there is no there is no

1738
01:11:54,820 --> 01:11:52,640
your experience without the witness

1739
01:11:57,250 --> 01:11:54,830
without the human experience we need to

1740
01:11:59,650 --> 01:11:57,260
be looking for more either I sell as

1741
01:12:02,169 --> 01:11:59,660
much as ourselves if not more so at

1742
01:12:05,380 --> 01:12:02,179
ourselves than these not done done

1743
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:05,390
distinguish is witnessed really yeah

1744
01:12:09,250 --> 01:12:07,250
that's true if we take ourselves we take

1745
01:12:10,510 --> 01:12:09,260
ourselves out of the equation and this

1746
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:10,520
is again some can I say in the book you

1747
01:12:15,580 --> 01:12:12,170
know we take we make the mistake of

1748
01:12:17,740 --> 01:12:15,590
telling ourselves as witnesses as a

1749
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:17,750
human instrument we take ourselves out

1750
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:19,130
of the equation and we just think oh

1751
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:21,050
well it's something that's we conceive

1752
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:23,570
the phenomenon conceived of it as an

1753
01:12:28,750 --> 01:12:26,770
external thing that is happening to us

1754
01:12:30,250 --> 01:12:28,760
but actually it may be far more

1755
01:12:32,770 --> 01:12:30,260
interactive than that for more

1756
01:12:34,900 --> 01:12:32,780
participatory far more use something

1757
01:12:38,260 --> 01:12:34,910
that there is an element of co-creation

1758
01:12:40,780 --> 01:12:38,270
that of course there is because we you

1759
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:40,790
know and as theoretical science is now

1760
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:43,040
showing that we actually create your own

1761
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:45,850
realities in a moment-by-moment basis as

1762
01:12:51,870 --> 01:12:47,810
individuals we create our own reality

1763
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:51,880
our brain is everything you know and so

1764
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:54,050
we need to be looking at ourselves in

1765
01:12:58,419 --> 01:12:56,330
agreement running ourselves far more in

1766
01:13:00,790 --> 01:12:58,429
order to fully understand and what we

1767
01:13:03,850 --> 01:13:00,800
perceived to be a phenomenon of UFOs

1768
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:03,860
right right I want to remind people over

1769
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:07,610
at kgr a radio that the phone lines open

1770
01:13:14,860 --> 01:13:10,850
and that numbers of six oh three nine

1771
01:13:17,260 --> 01:13:14,870
six seven four oh three oh I love the

1772
01:13:22,110 --> 01:13:17,270
story I'm not sure if you heard about or

1773
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:22,120
ever read this story about this polish

1774
01:13:30,340 --> 01:13:26,239
gentleman in a small village and he told

1775
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:30,350
this story about how he was I think he

1776
01:13:34,390 --> 01:13:31,730
was in his wagon or something going

1777
01:13:38,020 --> 01:13:34,400
across the field and this craft kind of

1778
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:38,030
working a family with I love that one

1779
01:13:42,900 --> 01:13:39,890
yeah they passed they were counted in me

1780
01:13:45,580 --> 01:13:42,910
in the book being read for him in the

1781
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:45,590
rubber bus so they talks about it and as

1782
01:13:49,340 --> 01:13:47,330
an example of one of these really high

1783
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:49,350
strange cases which doesn't

1784
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:51,330
sense at all and yet there are many

1785
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:53,250
cases like that many many cases were

1786
01:13:58,910 --> 01:13:56,370
absolutely absurd things happen yeah

1787
01:14:00,230 --> 01:13:58,920
comical comic absurd things happen in

1788
01:14:02,510 --> 01:14:00,240
these in these in these cases with

1789
01:14:04,430 --> 01:14:02,520
strange contraptions being saying

1790
01:14:07,730 --> 01:14:04,440
strange things appearing in strange way

1791
01:14:10,250 --> 01:14:07,740
just like far beyond I mean far stranger

1792
01:14:12,440 --> 01:14:10,260
than just aliens she's carried yeah make

1793
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:12,450
any sense on any level at all and it

1794
01:14:18,140 --> 01:14:13,770
seems the article it seems like it's

1795
01:14:19,700 --> 01:14:18,150
playing with us hmm and so he may be

1796
01:14:22,250 --> 01:14:19,710
that we are reality and maybe the

1797
01:14:23,270 --> 01:14:22,260
reality is far far strange than any of

1798
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:23,280
us have ever conceived

1799
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:27,210
that's very no and and so yeah I think

1800
01:14:31,310 --> 01:14:29,610
we are simplifying oversimplifying the

1801
01:14:33,500 --> 01:14:31,320
phenomenon in order to try and make

1802
01:14:38,030 --> 01:14:33,510
sense of it in order to in order to feel

1803
01:14:39,950 --> 01:14:38,040
more comfortable about it and so I so I

1804
01:14:41,300 --> 01:14:39,960
just to go back to what I was saying but

1805
01:14:42,770 --> 01:14:41,310
I think how disclosure how the

1806
01:14:45,710 --> 01:14:42,780
disclosure movement in the disclosure

1807
01:14:47,300 --> 01:14:45,720
term god it's used endlessly the turn

1808
01:14:48,350 --> 01:14:47,310
the turn disclosure when disclosure

1809
01:14:49,610 --> 01:14:48,360
going to happen disclosure disclosure

1810
01:14:51,020 --> 01:14:49,620
disclosure everyone talks about

1811
01:14:54,140 --> 01:14:51,030
disclosure and have been constantly

1812
01:14:56,410 --> 01:14:54,150
since 2001 and it's it's acutely

1813
01:15:01,580 --> 01:14:56,420
damaging because mister active people

1814
01:15:03,050 --> 01:15:01,590
the government and the or the the people

1815
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:03,060
the secret keepers shall we say people

1816
01:15:07,220 --> 01:15:05,130
who have an interest in this and behind

1817
01:15:11,230 --> 01:15:07,230
the scenes in positions of authority and

1818
01:15:13,730 --> 01:15:11,240
power they don't talk about disclosure

1819
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:13,740
David this is not something has ever

1820
01:15:17,660 --> 01:15:16,290
been something they would you know

1821
01:15:19,580 --> 01:15:17,670
they're not think no when are we going

1822
01:15:21,410 --> 01:15:19,590
to disclose what are we go it's never

1823
01:15:25,220 --> 01:15:21,420
been about we need to we need to replace

1824
01:15:28,270 --> 01:15:25,230
the term disclosure with perception

1825
01:15:31,070 --> 01:15:28,280
management it's only ever been about

1826
01:15:32,900 --> 01:15:31,080
managing popular perceptions of this

1827
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:32,910
phenomenon and of official terms

1828
01:15:37,730 --> 01:15:35,610
relationship to the phenomenon so you

1829
01:15:38,750 --> 01:15:37,740
know the government is let's just use

1830
01:15:41,030 --> 01:15:38,760
the catch-all term of the government

1831
01:15:42,710 --> 01:15:41,040
it's not as much it's not potentially 15

1832
01:15:44,990 --> 01:15:42,720
blessing because we're so the government

1833
01:15:46,940 --> 01:15:45,000
in terms of that interactions with the

1834
01:15:49,670 --> 01:15:46,950
public on this issue is only ever being

1835
01:15:51,710 --> 01:15:49,680
about perception management about

1836
01:15:54,220 --> 01:15:51,720
managing how the general public

1837
01:15:57,500 --> 01:15:54,230
perceives both the phenomenon and

1838
01:15:59,060 --> 01:15:57,510
specifically officialdom with historical

1839
01:16:01,130 --> 01:15:59,070
relationship to the phenomenon they're

1840
01:16:03,020 --> 01:16:01,140
trying to manage and mold popular

1841
01:16:04,700 --> 01:16:03,030
perceptions of that then

1842
01:16:05,930 --> 01:16:04,710
concerned with disclosing anything

1843
01:16:08,149 --> 01:16:05,940
because they don't understand the

1844
01:16:09,919 --> 01:16:08,159
phenomenon themself and and it would

1845
01:16:12,319 --> 01:16:09,929
used to be so problematic to disclose

1846
01:16:13,669 --> 01:16:12,329
anything like that now people are saying

1847
01:16:14,930 --> 01:16:13,679
people were saying what we're seeing

1848
01:16:18,020 --> 01:16:14,940
disclosure now we're seeing the closure

1849
01:16:20,089 --> 01:16:18,030
now with all of the the pentagon and and

1850
01:16:21,620 --> 01:16:20,099
a long stuff no we're not we're seeing

1851
01:16:23,629 --> 01:16:21,630
more perception management we are seeing

1852
01:16:24,890 --> 01:16:23,639
more perception management granted

1853
01:16:25,609 --> 01:16:24,900
they've gone further than they've ever

1854
01:16:28,279 --> 01:16:25,619
done before

1855
01:16:30,290 --> 01:16:28,289
and up to this point in what they're

1856
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:30,300
doing here but make no mistake our

1857
01:16:38,260 --> 01:16:33,210
perceptions are being molded manipulated

1858
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:38,270
and and I see what was happening now

1859
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:42,210
yeah absolutely fascinating but I'm more

1860
01:16:48,129 --> 01:16:45,090
concerned about it than excited alright

1861
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:48,139
so this is where I wanted to get back to

1862
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:50,400
you're considering it perception

1863
01:16:55,790 --> 01:16:53,489
management what would you what would be

1864
01:16:59,060 --> 01:16:55,800
the purpose of saying the government

1865
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:59,070
taken this by the horns and and doing

1866
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:00,960
this perception management what would be

1867
01:17:10,069 --> 01:17:06,449
their advantage it's not so much an

1868
01:17:13,580 --> 01:17:10,079
advantage as an effective so beginning

1869
01:17:15,919 --> 01:17:13,590
so so let's so it okay we have abundant

1870
01:17:18,890 --> 01:17:15,929
documentation and reports to show that

1871
01:17:20,359 --> 01:17:18,900
for whatever reason and as I said before

1872
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:20,369
this is an age-old phenomena and it's

1873
01:17:24,379 --> 01:17:22,050
manifested in many different ways across

1874
01:17:25,790 --> 01:17:24,389
different areas different cultures as

1875
01:17:29,870 --> 01:17:25,800
Jack Varley is shown in here in his

1876
01:17:30,979 --> 01:17:29,880
research but in the modern era it seemed

1877
01:17:33,169 --> 01:17:30,989
to explode into the popular

1878
01:17:34,459 --> 01:17:33,179
consciousness in their own 1947 of

1879
01:17:36,290 --> 01:17:34,469
course she had Foo Fighters before that

1880
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:36,300
in the Second World War but in the

1881
01:17:41,540 --> 01:17:38,730
flying discs you know the term flying

1882
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:41,550
saucer was coined in 1947 and it became

1883
01:17:45,830 --> 01:17:43,770
part of the popular consciousness now

1884
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:45,840
the public became very very interested

1885
01:17:54,279 --> 01:17:47,730
in at this point throughout the 1950s

1886
01:17:55,790 --> 01:17:54,289
and around that time at the CIA decided

1887
01:17:57,589 --> 01:17:55,800
according to our own official

1888
01:17:58,640 --> 01:17:57,599
Declassified documentation through the

1889
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:58,650
Robertson panel and things like that

1890
01:18:02,870 --> 01:18:00,480
they decided that they would undertaken

1891
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:02,880
a spurt to debunk and demystify UFOs in

1892
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:04,530
the popular consciousness through media

1893
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:06,210
channels

1894
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:09,449
they so the effort was to try to make

1895
01:18:12,669 --> 01:18:11,250
people disbelieve in UFOs and think it

1896
01:18:16,250 --> 01:18:12,679
was all a load of hokum

1897
01:18:20,030 --> 01:18:16,260
now I contend that

1898
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:20,040
the CIA and other agencies fairly

1899
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:22,770
quickly realized that their strategy of

1900
01:18:28,250 --> 01:18:27,690
debunking demystify was was was not

1901
01:18:32,270 --> 01:18:28,260
gonna work

1902
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:32,280
because they could not you can't you

1903
01:18:37,700 --> 01:18:34,730
can't realistically convince the world

1904
01:18:40,070 --> 01:18:37,710
the phenomenon does not exist when the

1905
01:18:41,930 --> 01:18:40,080
phenomenon itself continues to manifest

1906
01:18:43,490 --> 01:18:41,940
itself spectacularly around the world

1907
01:18:45,230 --> 01:18:43,500
and is seen by people from all walks of

1908
01:18:47,450 --> 01:18:45,240
life all professions and all standings

1909
01:18:49,390 --> 01:18:47,460
in society it's a phenomenon itself

1910
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:49,400
continues to manifest all over the world

1911
01:18:52,460 --> 01:18:51,090
with impunity

1912
01:18:53,870 --> 01:18:52,470
then you you're going to struggle to

1913
01:18:56,210 --> 01:18:53,880
convince the world that it doesn't exist

1914
01:18:58,370 --> 01:18:56,220
but what you can do and this is what

1915
01:19:01,730 --> 01:18:58,380
they realized well you can do is you can

1916
01:19:04,310 --> 01:19:01,740
manage how people perceive the phenomena

1917
01:19:05,780 --> 01:19:04,320
okay hmm and you can do that then you

1918
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:05,790
can do that quite effectively through

1919
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:07,050
media channels and through all sorts of

1920
01:19:11,480 --> 01:19:09,810
efforts by by play sort of steering the

1921
01:19:13,340 --> 01:19:11,490
narrative within the UFO subculture

1922
01:19:14,450 --> 01:19:13,350
which emanates out into popular culture

1923
01:19:16,310 --> 01:19:14,460
and you can then do it directly through

1924
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:16,320
popular culture through media chat

1925
01:19:19,970 --> 01:19:17,610
through and through news media

1926
01:19:22,460 --> 01:19:19,980
entertainment media etc and you can

1927
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:22,470
manage how people perceive the

1928
01:19:28,790 --> 01:19:24,810
phenomenon and you can manage how people

1929
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:28,800
perceive the government's historical

1930
01:19:32,450 --> 01:19:30,810
relationship to the phenomenon and

1931
01:19:35,150 --> 01:19:32,460
that's what they've been doing ever

1932
01:19:38,030 --> 01:19:35,160
since the early 1950s is trying to

1933
01:19:40,070 --> 01:19:38,040
manage constantly desperately try to

1934
01:19:42,100 --> 01:19:40,080
manage how people perceive this

1935
01:19:45,140 --> 01:19:42,110
phenomenon which is not going anywhere

1936
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:45,150
and they need to manage people people's

1937
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:46,050
perceptions of it because they

1938
01:19:48,710 --> 01:19:47,610
themselves don't really fully understand

1939
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:48,720
what what they're dealing with either

1940
01:19:51,740 --> 01:19:49,650
mmm-hmm

1941
01:19:53,780 --> 01:19:51,750
does that make any sense yeah well I

1942
01:19:56,450 --> 01:19:53,790
totally agree about that I don't think

1943
01:19:59,060 --> 01:19:56,460
that they understand anything about it

1944
01:20:01,190 --> 01:19:59,070
any more than anyone else I just think

1945
01:20:03,380 --> 01:20:01,200
that they have more possibly more

1946
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:03,390
information and so they're releasing

1947
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:06,210
let's say they're releasing videos and

1948
01:20:12,710 --> 01:20:10,050
in terms of in terms of in terms of why

1949
01:20:17,870 --> 01:20:12,720
they would need to manage perceptions

1950
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:17,880
it's a self-serving thing so so so first

1951
01:20:25,730 --> 01:20:24,210
of all I would if I was a nut it's a

1952
01:20:27,740 --> 01:20:25,740
thought experiment try to put yourselves

1953
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:27,750
in that position you know it's difficult

1954
01:20:30,430 --> 01:20:28,970
to do and all

1955
01:20:34,300 --> 01:20:30,440
can do this you know it's just a thought

1956
01:20:36,850 --> 01:20:34,310
experiment but yeah you know that there

1957
01:20:38,530 --> 01:20:36,860
is something really profound interacting

1958
01:20:40,030 --> 01:20:38,540
with us maybe as part of us but we just

1959
01:20:42,220 --> 01:20:40,040
don't fully understand it yet whatever

1960
01:20:43,390 --> 01:20:42,230
it is maybe you know but we really can't

1961
01:20:47,230 --> 01:20:43,400
get a handle on it and it's completely

1962
01:20:49,300 --> 01:20:47,240
beyond our control with that in mind

1963
01:20:50,740 --> 01:20:49,310
this phenomena could actually manifest

1964
01:20:53,110 --> 01:20:50,750
in such a way that it's undeniable to

1965
01:20:54,970 --> 01:20:53,120
everyone it could just do it now or

1966
01:20:56,170 --> 01:20:54,980
tomorrow right and then it's completely

1967
01:20:57,970 --> 01:20:56,180
out of your control

1968
01:21:00,040 --> 01:20:57,980
in that event people look to the

1969
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:00,050
government for answers and support and

1970
01:21:06,610 --> 01:21:04,970
and security what am I gonna say well we

1971
01:21:08,290 --> 01:21:06,620
don't really understand it ourselves

1972
01:21:10,900 --> 01:21:08,300
sorry and then they look they look

1973
01:21:16,590 --> 01:21:10,910
incompetent they look useless they you

1974
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:16,600
know they look ignorant uninformed so

1975
01:21:21,970 --> 01:21:18,770
what I believe they would attempted to

1976
01:21:23,380 --> 01:21:21,980
do very successfully is to convince

1977
01:21:26,470 --> 01:21:23,390
people that this phenomenon is

1978
01:21:28,780 --> 01:21:26,480
representative of one thing which is

1979
01:21:29,860 --> 01:21:28,790
extraterrestrial visitation more than

1980
01:21:30,940 --> 01:21:29,870
that they've attempted to convince

1981
01:21:33,310 --> 01:21:30,950
people that they have actually

1982
01:21:35,260 --> 01:21:33,320
understood the phenomenon and sort of

1983
01:21:36,940 --> 01:21:35,270
mastered the technology the technologies

1984
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:36,950
that are involved this serves several

1985
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:40,930
purposes by doing this you can scare

1986
01:21:45,940 --> 01:21:43,040
terrestrial foreign enemies such as

1987
01:21:47,830 --> 01:21:45,950
Russia or China into believing that you

1988
01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:47,840
have mastered the technology which is

1989
01:21:52,810 --> 01:21:50,090
why you get stories like Bob Lazar Oh 51

1990
01:21:54,460 --> 01:21:52,820
now area Bob Lazar clearly did my

1991
01:21:57,220 --> 01:21:54,470
opinion he's absolutely telling the

1992
01:21:59,800 --> 01:21:57,230
truth about his time area 51 you think

1993
01:22:00,580 --> 01:21:59,810
so the I believe he I believe he's

1994
01:22:03,460 --> 01:22:00,590
telling the truth

1995
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:03,470
as he believes as he believes it and I'd

1996
01:22:07,330 --> 01:22:05,600
bet my life on but I really well the

1997
01:22:09,190 --> 01:22:07,340
true case but yeah but the truth that

1998
01:22:09,790 --> 01:22:09,200
he's telling it is definitely not the

1999
01:22:13,060 --> 01:22:09,800
truth

2000
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:13,070
and he's sort of open to the idea itself

2001
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:16,010
as well he's hinted at that himself he

2002
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:17,810
was heavily manipulated he was a pawn

2003
01:22:23,140 --> 01:22:19,610
and he wasn't the first and he wasn't

2004
01:22:27,130 --> 01:22:23,150
the last and the most recent one is a

2005
01:22:30,670 --> 01:22:27,140
former pop punk singer mm-hm you talking

2006
01:22:33,910 --> 01:22:30,680
about blink mr. Tom DeLonge

2007
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:33,920
yeah yeah so you think you'd clear that

2008
01:22:39,330 --> 01:22:36,050
mean clearly okay no question about it

2009
01:22:42,819 --> 01:22:39,340
so you think so Tom DeLonge gets he gets

2010
01:22:44,290 --> 01:22:42,829
he starts out at skunk works

2011
01:22:46,299 --> 01:22:44,300
party or something like that talks to

2012
01:22:48,699 --> 01:22:46,309
someone gets a little further a little

2013
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:48,709
deeper in a little deeper in and you

2014
01:22:58,689 --> 01:22:54,050
think this is all all orchestrated more

2015
01:23:01,599 --> 01:22:58,699
or less not necessarily so this is high

2016
01:23:03,339 --> 01:23:01,609
you know I don't like to tell you what I

2017
01:23:04,750 --> 01:23:03,349
mean you can't really talk about ufology

2018
01:23:07,540 --> 01:23:04,760
without speculating nothing was really

2019
01:23:09,579 --> 01:23:07,550
important to clarify what is speculation

2020
01:23:12,790 --> 01:23:09,589
and what is not and here we're into

2021
01:23:14,469 --> 01:23:12,800
highly speculative territory so I don't

2022
01:23:17,469 --> 01:23:14,479
have definitive answers on any of this

2023
01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:17,479
all I have these are theories based on

2024
01:23:22,959 --> 01:23:20,030
very well documented historical cases

2025
01:23:25,719 --> 01:23:22,969
and timelines and this is just an

2026
01:23:28,419 --> 01:23:25,729
outgrowth of sort of four decades of

2027
01:23:30,250 --> 01:23:28,429
history and so we can make some logical

2028
01:23:32,069 --> 01:23:30,260
assumptions based on historical research

2029
01:23:40,839 --> 01:23:32,079
and this fits into it perfectly

2030
01:23:42,219 --> 01:23:40,849
seamlessly so yeah I think I think I'm

2031
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:42,229
not sure I'm even ready at this point

2032
01:23:47,049 --> 01:23:45,530
mine too to adventure and specific

2033
01:23:49,659 --> 01:23:47,059
speculations along these lines because I

2034
01:23:51,609 --> 01:23:49,669
I would actually like to do more

2035
01:23:53,619 --> 01:23:51,619
detailed research into it and publish it

2036
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:53,629
and publish it in the form of several

2037
01:23:57,699 --> 01:23:56,239
articles or awesome or something along

2038
01:23:59,349 --> 01:23:57,709
those lines in the very near future and

2039
01:24:02,589 --> 01:23:59,359
I'm in the process of doing that right

2040
01:24:05,020 --> 01:24:02,599
now I don't want to add further to to

2041
01:24:08,139 --> 01:24:05,030
the wild speculation but I think it's

2042
01:24:09,909 --> 01:24:08,149
fair to say very fair to say and

2043
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:09,919
actually I would go forward to say

2044
01:24:15,849 --> 01:24:11,570
idiotic for anyone who believes

2045
01:24:18,129 --> 01:24:15,859
otherwise that what would the narrative

2046
01:24:21,849 --> 01:24:18,139
we've been presented with hereby to the

2047
01:24:25,540 --> 01:24:21,859
stars and Tom DeLonge and the performer

2048
01:24:30,069 --> 01:24:25,550
and Lewis Elizondo and and people at the

2049
01:24:36,369 --> 01:24:30,079
Pentagon is not as it seems if people

2050
01:24:38,729 --> 01:24:36,379
are taking this at face value I mean you

2051
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:38,739
can't possibly take this at face value a

2052
01:24:47,969 --> 01:24:43,010
you this is a project to the stars is a

2053
01:24:55,540 --> 01:24:52,029
constructed by intelligence their career

2054
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:55,550
intelligence people and anyone who who

2055
01:24:59,060 --> 01:24:56,850
spent a lifetime Intel

2056
01:25:00,680 --> 01:24:59,070
community you don't really ever leave

2057
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:00,690
you you're always part of that and

2058
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:04,050
you're always kind of on call if you if

2059
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:06,090
people need to call on you that's kind

2060
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:13,650
of how it works my speculation and I

2061
01:25:18,230 --> 01:25:16,290
stress speculation at this point is that

2062
01:25:20,630 --> 01:25:18,240
yeah Tom DeLonge obviously very

2063
01:25:22,790 --> 01:25:20,640
interested in UFOs for a very long time

2064
01:25:25,850 --> 01:25:22,800
and he took it upon himself through his

2065
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:25,860
own initiative to to look into this

2066
01:25:29,990 --> 01:25:27,360
subject and to try to make some headway

2067
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:30,000
behind the scenes and because of who he

2068
01:25:35,270 --> 01:25:32,250
was and he had and you know and you know

2069
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:35,280
celebrities carry some cachet he was

2070
01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:36,570
managed he managed to make certain

2071
01:25:42,530 --> 01:25:40,560
connections and he started to gaze on

2072
01:25:47,900 --> 01:25:42,540
projects underway to his own taste

2073
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:47,910
credit what I very confidently speculate

2074
01:25:52,940 --> 01:25:50,850
is that not too long after he started to

2075
01:25:56,690 --> 01:25:52,950
gather his former intelligence officials

2076
01:25:58,460 --> 01:25:56,700
together as advisors by the way those

2077
01:26:00,950 --> 01:25:58,470
advisers were all given to him by his

2078
01:26:03,890 --> 01:26:00,960
own admission by serving general

2079
01:26:05,750 --> 01:26:03,900
assisted General McCasland basically

2080
01:26:07,190 --> 01:26:05,760
chose his advisers for him selected is

2081
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:07,200
about it Tom's long didn't select his

2082
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:08,880
advisers they were selected for him by

2083
01:26:15,860 --> 01:26:12,050
sitting general right so the government

2084
01:26:17,270 --> 01:26:15,870
chose Tom DeLonge advisors this is

2085
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:17,280
really important this is not an

2086
01:26:21,140 --> 01:26:19,530
autonomous project please don't make the

2087
01:26:23,990 --> 01:26:21,150
mistake of thinking that to the stars is

2088
01:26:25,820 --> 01:26:24,000
an autonomous project it is anything but

2089
01:26:27,710 --> 01:26:25,830
it is being steered and guided and

2090
01:26:29,180 --> 01:26:27,720
Alejandro himself said at the beginning

2091
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:29,190
of the show as these mainstream

2092
01:26:32,570 --> 01:26:31,290
journalists are very quickly realizing

2093
01:26:34,220 --> 01:26:32,580
there's only people within the UFO

2094
01:26:36,110 --> 01:26:34,230
community who are blinded by it

2095
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:36,120
anyone who's approaching this from the

2096
01:26:39,470 --> 01:26:37,770
outside like mainstream journalists

2097
01:26:41,090 --> 01:26:39,480
actual journalist with journalistic

2098
01:26:43,340 --> 01:26:41,100
integrity looking at it something very

2099
01:26:45,500 --> 01:26:43,350
clearly quite you know quite quickly

2100
01:26:48,980 --> 01:26:45,510
what this actually is and it's not what

2101
01:26:50,900 --> 01:26:48,990
it appears to be and this is a this is a

2102
01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:50,910
perception management project and it's a

2103
01:26:57,590 --> 01:26:53,760
self-serving militaristic project which

2104
01:27:00,650 --> 01:26:57,600
is designed to rewrite UFO history for

2105
01:27:02,210 --> 01:27:00,660
the powers that be to absolve the

2106
01:27:06,110 --> 01:27:02,220
powers-that-be of historical wrongdoing

2107
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:06,120
and illegality in over the years within

2108
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:08,850
their relationship to the phenomenon and

2109
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:10,770
it's an attempt to present the

2110
01:27:15,980 --> 01:27:12,480
industrial complexes actually that the

2111
01:27:18,440 --> 01:27:15,990
heroes of this at this story and I said

2112
01:27:19,910 --> 01:27:18,450
sanitize it all but also to present the

2113
01:27:22,580 --> 01:27:19,920
phenomenon and this is crucial to this

2114
01:27:24,170 --> 01:27:22,590
story to present the phenomenon as a

2115
01:27:26,450 --> 01:27:24,180
military threat which of course will

2116
01:27:29,060 --> 01:27:26,460
justify increased defense spending etc

2117
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:29,070
etc Tom's along himself has made no

2118
01:27:32,780 --> 01:27:30,480
secret of the fact that this is intended

2119
01:27:34,100 --> 01:27:32,790
to to burnish the image of a military

2120
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:34,110
industrial complex is quite proud of

2121
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:38,010
that fact so yes if you're so so my

2122
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:39,690
confidence speculation is that is that

2123
01:27:43,700 --> 01:27:42,330
people who are actually involved in new

2124
01:27:45,650 --> 01:27:43,710
classified projects behind the scenes

2125
01:27:47,030 --> 01:27:45,660
very quickly got wind of what Tom

2126
01:27:48,980 --> 01:27:47,040
DeLonge was doing and they thought okay

2127
01:27:50,420 --> 01:27:48,990
well we can we can we can use this we

2128
01:27:53,540 --> 01:27:50,430
can exploit this this this is a good

2129
01:28:02,840 --> 01:27:53,550
opportunity for us here so I'm gonna go

2130
01:28:08,150 --> 01:28:02,850
out on a limb here this is Louise

2131
01:28:12,650 --> 01:28:08,160
Elizondo is is not he's not still on the

2132
01:28:14,420 --> 01:28:12,660
payroll of the US government I would be

2133
01:28:18,350 --> 01:28:14,430
deeply shocked how you asking that

2134
01:28:19,460 --> 01:28:18,360
question actually I directly asked and

2135
01:28:21,170 --> 01:28:19,470
of course he's not going to of course

2136
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:21,180
she's gonna say you know of course he's

2137
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:22,650
gonna say no he just started laughing

2138
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:24,210
and said well I'd like to be getting the

2139
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:26,880
money for it then yeah yeah I'm sorry

2140
01:28:31,790 --> 01:28:29,130
this is simply no way he's not on the

2141
01:28:33,170 --> 01:28:31,800
plane Hollis US government I believe

2142
01:28:34,490 --> 01:28:33,180
that the story that they're constructed

2143
01:28:36,710 --> 01:28:34,500
there you know it's like oh he quit his

2144
01:28:38,300 --> 01:28:36,720
job and stuff like that I think that you

2145
01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:38,310
know I think they've said to him what

2146
01:28:43,790 --> 01:28:39,840
look what we want to do is what we want

2147
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:43,800
in order to control or to steer the

2148
01:28:47,660 --> 01:28:46,050
Long's efforts here and take control of

2149
01:28:48,950 --> 01:28:47,670
them essentially and use them for a

2150
01:28:50,330 --> 01:28:48,960
self-serving purpose what they need to

2151
01:28:52,460 --> 01:28:50,340
do is they need to have a man on the

2152
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:52,470
inside so they get Elizondo this is

2153
01:28:57,170 --> 01:28:54,090
speculation I can't prove this at all

2154
01:28:57,580 --> 01:28:57,180
his speculation I will be very clear

2155
01:29:00,590 --> 01:28:57,590
about that

2156
01:29:02,180 --> 01:29:00,600
but have you have you put this out there

2157
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:02,190
because I'm sure there are gonna be a

2158
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:04,320
lot of debates on this one no I'm not

2159
01:29:12,860 --> 01:29:08,850
not to this extent no this isn't it okay

2160
01:29:14,990 --> 01:29:12,870
and but I detailed a detailed you know

2161
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:15,000
my my position on DeLonge extensively in

2162
01:29:18,980 --> 01:29:17,040
two articles I wrote three years ago

2163
01:29:20,870 --> 01:29:18,990
from mysterious universe and called the

2164
01:29:23,210 --> 01:29:20,880
DeLong delusion and I was saying it's

2165
01:29:24,469 --> 01:29:23,220
three years ago very clear in my opinion

2166
01:29:26,199 --> 01:29:24,479
that this is

2167
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:26,209
perception management project that the

2168
01:29:29,899 --> 01:29:28,530
long is being used I was very clear

2169
01:29:32,299 --> 01:29:29,909
about that there's no question that he's

2170
01:29:33,949 --> 01:29:32,309
been used and I present a lot of

2171
01:29:36,410 --> 01:29:33,959
historical evidence to suggest why this

2172
01:29:37,489 --> 01:29:36,420
is why I believe this to be the case and

2173
01:29:39,830 --> 01:29:37,499
if you want to read these articles that

2174
01:29:41,839 --> 01:29:39,840
goodwill the DeLong the delusion and

2175
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:41,849
it's a to particle you can read it a

2176
01:29:45,500 --> 01:29:43,170
mysterious universe it's very detailed

2177
01:29:47,209 --> 01:29:45,510
I'd strongly encourage everyone to read

2178
01:29:48,709 --> 01:29:47,219
that especially if you is whether you

2179
01:29:51,020 --> 01:29:48,719
agree or disagree what I'm saying here

2180
01:29:53,180 --> 01:29:51,030
you you owe it to yourself to read those

2181
01:29:56,449 --> 01:29:53,190
articles this is three years ago okay

2182
01:30:00,040 --> 01:29:56,459
and the the new article that came out

2183
01:30:01,910 --> 01:30:00,050
just recently like last week where

2184
01:30:05,270 --> 01:30:01,920
Alejandra referenced at the beginning of

2185
01:30:07,719 --> 01:30:05,280
this this podcast here that's saying

2186
01:30:10,430 --> 01:30:07,729
basically exactly why I said but but

2187
01:30:16,969 --> 01:30:10,440
we're sort of more up to date and so

2188
01:30:19,219 --> 01:30:16,979
this isn't a new idea so yes this you

2189
01:30:21,229 --> 01:30:19,229
know one scenario here is if they said

2190
01:30:22,879 --> 01:30:21,239
to Elizondo who's a career intelligence

2191
01:30:24,649 --> 01:30:22,889
man he spent you know decades in

2192
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:24,659
intelligence and in counterintelligence

2193
01:30:30,529 --> 01:30:28,530
is a job to deceive people to walk

2194
01:30:32,839 --> 01:30:30,539
between the shadows to play roles that's

2195
01:30:35,689 --> 01:30:32,849
his job as we paid for four decades to

2196
01:30:37,870 --> 01:30:35,699
do but in order to control so if you

2197
01:30:39,709 --> 01:30:37,880
want to control a situation a group

2198
01:30:41,089 --> 01:30:39,719
infiltrate group and this is the history

2199
01:30:43,069 --> 01:30:41,099
of the oven of the intelligence

2200
01:30:44,959 --> 01:30:43,079
community the entire history of US

2201
01:30:47,689 --> 01:30:44,969
intelligence community is infiltrating

2202
01:30:49,489 --> 01:30:47,699
groups to control them and you know so

2203
01:30:51,229 --> 01:30:49,499
you want a man on the inside so you have

2204
01:30:52,969 --> 01:30:51,239
to have so you get someone like Elizondo

2205
01:30:54,979 --> 01:30:52,979
this is speculation again if someone

2206
01:30:56,390 --> 01:30:54,989
like elizondo's he plays a role because

2207
01:30:57,890 --> 01:30:56,400
he's been used to doing this for years

2208
01:31:01,600 --> 01:30:57,900
and this is nothing new to him he's been

2209
01:31:05,330 --> 01:31:01,610
addicted years overseas you know and

2210
01:31:07,819 --> 01:31:05,340
yeah so he makes cozy with with with the

2211
01:31:09,739 --> 01:31:07,829
long and says yeah you know I'm gonna

2212
01:31:11,629 --> 01:31:09,749
come join and quit my job now and I'm

2213
01:31:13,459 --> 01:31:11,639
gonna join you which is good so quickly

2214
01:31:15,319 --> 01:31:13,469
the story the official story buddy quit

2215
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:15,329
job and it's like a week later joined

2216
01:31:19,910 --> 01:31:17,010
along company that's kind of convenient

2217
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:19,920
isn't it yeah just just to let you know

2218
01:31:25,819 --> 01:31:22,530
we only have about a minute here left ok

2219
01:31:28,819 --> 01:31:25,829
but I want to be able to I want to be

2220
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:28,829
able to have the listener to this be

2221
01:31:34,250 --> 01:31:30,570
able to reach out to you is there a way

2222
01:31:36,830 --> 01:31:34,260
to do that my website is down at the

2223
01:31:37,939 --> 01:31:36,840
moment but and you can you can I'm on

2224
01:31:40,490 --> 01:31:37,949
face or on Facebook

2225
01:31:41,900 --> 01:31:40,500
email and then you can email me and my

2226
01:31:44,060 --> 01:31:41,910
website we backup is being refurbished

2227
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:44,070
in a moment but it will be back up as

2228
01:31:52,130 --> 01:31:47,449
soon as possible but you can email me

2229
01:31:54,860 --> 01:31:52,140
I'll be happy to read emails and ok for

2230
01:31:56,270 --> 01:31:54,870
now I will I will forward any of them to

2231
01:31:58,490 --> 01:31:56,280
you again we only have a million half

2232
01:32:00,830 --> 01:31:58,500
but just one quick question is why would

2233
01:32:06,590 --> 01:32:00,840
the government pay any attention to the

2234
01:32:09,620 --> 01:32:06,600
UFO community great question because the

2235
01:32:12,380 --> 01:32:09,630
UFO community is sort of the the the

2236
01:32:13,669 --> 01:32:12,390
bedrock of web beliefs are formed of

2237
01:32:16,580 --> 01:32:13,679
what popular belief is when people

2238
01:32:18,620 --> 01:32:16,590
wouldn't think that but actually as I

2239
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:18,630
say so much of what we see in in popular

2240
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:21,090
culture has stemmed from the UFO

2241
01:32:25,820 --> 01:32:23,370
subculture it began within the UFO

2242
01:32:27,380 --> 01:32:25,830
subculture so the UFO subculture a lot

2243
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:27,390
of the mass nations and internal

2244
01:32:31,220 --> 01:32:29,010
disputes and squabbles are unknown to

2245
01:32:33,050 --> 01:32:31,230
anyone outside of it but some of that

2246
01:32:34,850 --> 01:32:33,060
stuff some of the iconography and core

2247
01:32:36,500 --> 01:32:34,860
themes and ideas they filter out into

2248
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:36,510
popular culture and shape the popular

2249
01:32:41,229 --> 01:32:38,489
belief so if you want to shape popular

2250
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:41,239
belief then you can't hurt to actually

2251
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:44,010
sort of have some influence over where

2252
01:32:48,979 --> 01:32:46,770
those beliefs are rooted excellent we

2253
01:32:50,740 --> 01:32:48,989
have to go I'm sorry to say Robbie

2254
01:32:53,959 --> 01:32:50,750
thanks so much it's an interesting

2255
01:32:54,229 --> 01:32:53,969
interesting discussion thank you thanks

2256
01:32:56,570 --> 01:32:54,239
so much

2257
01:32:58,820 --> 01:32:56,580
alright and get to sleep it's really

2258
01:33:00,580 --> 01:32:58,830
through there all right thanks again you

2259
01:33:03,620 --> 01:33:00,590
take care now I'll talk to you soon okay

2260
01:33:06,110 --> 01:33:03,630
all right bye alright everyone so that's

2261
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:06,120
it for our show thank you so much for

2262
01:33:10,100 --> 01:33:07,530
listening next week we'll have another

2263
01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:10,110
British accent we have Jay Matthews he's

2264
01:33:14,689 --> 01:33:12,510
going to be on the show in the middle of

2265
01:33:16,070 --> 01:33:14,699
the night over there as well so thanks

2266
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:16,080
for everyone that helps out with the

2267
01:33:20,030 --> 01:33:17,489
show and thanks to each and every